[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Mariano Reingart added the comment: Just for the record, I've presented a "CPython Internationalization proposal" for this year Google Summer of Code program: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/public/google/gsoc2015/reingart/5634387206995968 Indeed, that was my third attempt to move

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Steven D'Aprano added the comment: For what it's worth, there are at least two localised versions of Python: Teuton and ChinesePython. As far as I know, ChinesePython is still in active development. Both translate the keywords and builtins, to German and Chinese respectively. I don't have a li

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Terry J. Reedy added the comment: Raymond, did you mean to send that to another issue? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Raymond Hettinger added the comment: The text is now correct and matches the spec: http://speleotrove.com/decimal/daops.html#refremnear The doctests should be expanded to show all of the examples listed in that document: remainder-near(’2.1’, ’3’)==> ’-0.9’ remainder-near(’10’, ’6’)

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Raymond Hettinger added the comment: I'm going to close this one. It *really* would need a PEP before going forward. There are many issues to consider: being able to google for an exception message, doctest issues, maintainability issues, etc. -- nosy: +rhettinger resolution: -> re

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Terry J. Reedy added the comment: An additional reason to keep English error messages always is that they are not just printed. They are part of the args tuple attribute of exception objects. Code that processes exception messages could break if the English version is replaced. Doctests are on

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Terry J. Reedy added the comment: What Ezio suggested, plus maybe the error name -- but people must learn those to write exception statements, and a translation of the exceptions section of the lib manual is really needed to understand them. The boilerplate lines "Traceback (most recent call l

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

R. David Murray added the comment: Ezio: ah. I guess I don't read the Description column of attachments, only the filename :) -- ___ Python tracker ___

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

R. David Murray added the comment: I didn't look at the patch...I assumed we were only talking about the message. There seems little point in translating any other part of the traceback, other than maybe the boilerplate between traceback sections. My thought was that the translation text for

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ezio Melotti added the comment: If only the error gets translated it might look more or less like: Traceback (most recent call last): File "form.py", line 78, in f = Form("factura.csv") File "form.py", line 12, in __init__ for linea in open(infile).readlines(): IOError: [Errno 2] No

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Georg Brandl added the comment: How do you propose to output both versions? It will make tracebacks twice as long. -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

R. David Murray added the comment: It seems to me that if as Terry suggests both the English and the translation are output then most of Ezio's concerns would be addressed. Maybe we could even start a new trend in error message internationalization :) An important question that needs to be ad

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ezio Melotti added the comment: > This sounds like wishful thinking to me. Regardless of whether it's > *better* for a fledgling programmer to learn and improve their English, > we can still improve Python right now for those who don't master English. True, but my point is that while this has so

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > > Those that continues working on programming will surely be exposed > > sooner or later to formal technical English course at University or > > similar. > > The sooner they get exposed to English the better it is. The best > way to learn a language is by usi

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ezio Melotti added the comment: > Teach the users English may be an altruist goal in the long term, but > for many teachers (like my case) it a barrier right now that can tip > the balance to other "more friendly languages" Students are not required to learn English and English grammar before p

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ramchandra Apte added the comment: I said >> Schools put a priority on English but not on native languages. Languages >> must be preserved because they contain culture Charles-François Natali said > Of course, but the main goal of a language is to communicate. > As it stand, English is the lang

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Mariano Reingart added the comment: Sorry for taking so long to replying, and for this long follow up... > Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > I think the PEP should be proposed on python-dev or python-ideas. > Also, it's probably better if the PEP is encoded in utf-8, not > latin-1. Ok, I'll

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Changes by R. David Murray : -- nosy: +r.david.murray ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://ma

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > You anyway have to know English to understand the docs and Python's > grammar is English. I don't think Python's grammar is relevant. I took my first steps in programming when I was around 10 and I barely knew English at the time, it didn't stop me from mast

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Terry J. Reedy added the comment: >It'll get tricky if in a couple months, we start getting bug reports with >traceback in Finnish or French... That is another reason to *always* output the standard English message first. I think this was discussed a couple of years ago on PyDev, or maybe anot

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Charles-François Natali added the comment: > Schools put a priority on English but not on native languages. Languages must > be preserved because they contain culture Of course, but the main goal of a language is to communicate. As it stand, English is the language which is the most likely to

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ramchandra Apte added the comment: Unless Python's grammar is translated into other languages I'm -1 on this. I don't see any use of this. You anyway have to know English to understand the docs and Python's grammar is English. @Ezio melotti >> In some places (like my country, public schools), En

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ezio Melotti added the comment: > "serious" developers? sorry but I think that is a unfortunate phrase > that goes against the Python Diversity Statement With "serious" I just mean anyone that wants to continue programming, as opposed as someone doing e.g. a one-off course at university (hence

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Terry J. Reedy added the comment: I am sympathetic with non-English speakers wanting a native-language translation. But I think the interpreter should *always* emit the standard message and that any translation should be an addition, not a replacement. This would maintain discoverablity and he

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: I think the PEP should be proposed on python-dev or python-ideas. Also, it's probably better if the PEP is encoded in utf-8, not latin-1. -- nosy: +pitrou ___ Python tracker __

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Mariano Reingart added the comment: "serious" developers? sorry but I think that is a unfortunate phrase that goes against the Python Diversity Statement What about young pupil? What about non-programmers (i.e. accountants)? In some places (like my country, public schools), English is not teac

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Ezio Melotti added the comment: I'm -1 on the idea for the following reasons: * any "serious" developer is expected to know English, and novice developers should be encouraged to learn it, rather than being confined to a localized environment; * even if the error messages are translated, all t

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Mariano Reingart added the comment: BTW, I'd write a draft PEP for this (attached), the online version is at Just let me know if it has to be uploaded/discussed elsewere -- Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file27757/pe

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Mariano Reingart added the comment: This has been discussed in python-ideas two years ago (I've resurrected the thread there) Sadly I didn't have time for this before, but as in 15 days we have a sprint on cpython at PyCon Argetina 2012, maybe it would be a good idea discuss this again. Sorr

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

Georg Brandl added the comment: Has this been discussed on python-dev before? I see that your proposal is in PEP form; it would be a good idea to post it to python-dev since this is not a change that can be done without a PEP. -- nosy: +georg.brandl __

[issue16344] Traceback Internationalization Proposal

New submission from Mariano Reingart: I'm opening this ticket to organize patches for a proposal of a GETTEXT-based message translation for exception/tracebacks as described in: This requires the patch in issue #16343 Attached