Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:24 PM Donald Stufft wrote: > > > On Jul 25, 2018, at 2:01 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: > > Right, and your proposal means I now have to judge proposed core > developers on which side of popular opinion they will come down on in hopes > that they vote in ways I agree with and

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Le 26/07/2018 à 01:21, Donald Stufft a écrit : > >> On Jul 25, 2018, at 2:01 PM, Brett Cannon > > wrote: >> >> Right, and your proposal means I now have to judge proposed core >> developers on which side of popular opinion they will come down on in >> hopes that they vote

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

> On Jul 25, 2018, at 2:01 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: > > Right, and your proposal means I now have to judge proposed core developers > on which side of popular opinion they will come down on in hopes that they > vote in ways I agree with and thus help take the language in a direction I > think

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 16:51 Victor Stinner wrote: > Brett: > > This will also make it harder to become a core developer. In the past we > > have been willing to give people commit privileges for showing they know > how > > to code to our standards, make decisions when it came to PRs, and knew >

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Le 25/07/2018 à 01:50, Victor Stinner a écrit : > Brett: >> This will also make it harder to become a core developer. In the past we >> have been willing to give people commit privileges for showing they know how >> to code to our standards, make decisions when it came to PRs, and knew when >> the

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Brett: > This will also make it harder to become a core developer. In the past we > have been willing to give people commit privileges for showing they know how > to code to our standards, make decisions when it came to PRs, and knew when > they were outside of their depth (e.g. giving someone comm

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 07:46 Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 21 July 2018 at 04:30, Donald Stufft wrote: > > > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 7:47 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: > > > > It seems that the main question for a new governance is how to take a > > decision on PEPs (accept or reject them with some varian

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On 21 July 2018 at 07:14, Brett Cannon wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 at 16:47 Victor Stinner wrote: >> What is the image sent to contributors if we create a subgroup inside >> core developpers called "council"? What if we elect a new BDFL *for >> life*? Does it mean that even core developers judgm

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On 21 July 2018 at 04:30, Donald Stufft wrote: > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 7:47 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: > > It seems that the main question for a new governance is how to take a > decision on PEPs (accept or reject them with some variants like > Deferred). I read that core developers are unable to

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 01:11 Antoine Pitrou, wrote: > > Le 20/07/2018 à 23:14, Brett Cannon a écrit : > > > > Steve pointed out in his reply about how this might increase load as > > people will have to start trying to get people on side to vote the way > > they want. In US politics this is done b

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Le 20/07/2018 à 23:14, Brett Cannon a écrit : > > Steve pointed out in his reply about how this might increase load as > people will have to start trying to get people on side to vote the way > they want. In US politics this is done by someone called a /whip/ who > "whips up" votes for a bill. Wi

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 17:03 Victor Stinner, wrote: > 2018-07-20 18:32 GMT+02:00 Steven D'Aprano : > > What happens when two trusted experts disagree and the voters don't have > > the expertise to tell which one is correct? > > In my proposal, if no consensus can be found, the vote fails to reach

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

2018-07-20 18:32 GMT+02:00 Steven D'Aprano : > What happens when two trusted experts disagree and the voters don't have > the expertise to tell which one is correct? In my proposal, if no consensus can be found, the vote fails to reach the majority, the PEP is rejected. Usually, people disagree o

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 at 16:47 Victor Stinner wrote: > or: Replace Dictatorship with Democracy. > [SNIP] > > > == What is the image send to the community and contributors? == > > Last year, I mentored multiple contributors. What I learnt is that > contributing to Python is much harder than what I e

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

> On Jul 19, 2018, at 7:47 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: > > It seems that the main question for a new governance is how to take a > decision on PEPs (accept or reject them with some variants like > Deferred). I read that core developers are unable to make a decision > themselves (fail to reach a co

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Jul 20, 2018, at 00:49, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > I find the PEP-delegate to be a powerful concept. Why wouldn't *every* > PEP have a PEP-delegate? This way we don't need a BDFL anymore. We can > discuss how to nominate PEP-delegates (Nick had an interesting proposal). Because IMHO that wo

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Excerpts from Steven D'Aprano's message of 2018-07-21 02:32:02 +1000: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37:03AM -0400, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > Excerpts from Paul Moore's message of 2018-07-20 13:14:49 +0100: > > [...] > > > In contrast, I would imagine that people would continue to discuss > > > PEPs

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Summary: appointing a BDFL or small council *does not* force them to do all the work themselves. On 20Jul2018 0457, Victor Stinner wrote: mailing list (I'm talking about "+1" emails), before a formal and well defined PEP is written ;-) Until your new process arrives, "+1" emails are not votes

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 09:59:39AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Le 20/07/2018 à 01:47, Victor Stinner a écrit : > > > > What is the image sent to contributors if we create a subgroup inside > > core developpers called "council"? What if we elect a new BDFL *for > > life*? Does it mean that ev

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37:03AM -0400, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Paul Moore's message of 2018-07-20 13:14:49 +0100: [...] > > In contrast, I would imagine that people would continue to discuss > > PEPs in exactly the same way that they currently do, so the result > > would be that th

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Excerpts from Paul Moore's message of 2018-07-20 13:14:49 +0100: > On 20 July 2018 at 12:57, Victor Stinner wrote: > > Hum. Let me try to explain my point differently. Currently, some > > people don't read PEPs just because at the end, only the single BDFL > > vote counts. What's the point of spen

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Excerpts from Antoine Pitrou's message of 2018-07-20 09:49:01 +0200: > > Le 20/07/2018 à 02:51, Ethan Furman a écrit : > > My first issue with this model is, as discussed above, a lack of a > > consistent vision. A BDFL is not just there to say, > > "this PEP is accepted," but also to say, "cha

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On 20 July 2018 at 12:57, Victor Stinner wrote: > Hum. Let me try to explain my point differently. Currently, some > people don't read PEPs just because at the end, only the single BDFL > vote counts. What's the point of spending hours (if not days) on > reading a long PEP and the long discussion

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Hi Ethan, Thanks for your feedback! 2018-07-20 2:51 GMT+02:00 Ethan Furman : >> I see that many people are eager to replace the old governance based >> on a single BDFL with a new governance with a new BD(FL) and/or a >> council. My problem is that I don't see any clear definition of the >> roles

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Le 20/07/2018 à 01:47, Victor Stinner a écrit : > > What is the image sent to contributors if we create a subgroup inside > core developpers called "council"? What if we elect a new BDFL *for > life*? Does it mean that even core developers judgment are no longer > trusted, only the council decisi

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

Le 20/07/2018 à 02:51, Ethan Furman a écrit : > My first issue with this model is, as discussed above, a lack of a consistent > vision. A BDFL is not just there to say, > "this PEP is accepted," but also to say, "change this one piece here, remove > that piece there, add this" -- definitely >

Re: [python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

On 07/19/2018 04:47 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: or: Replace Dictatorship with Democracy. Hi, == Introduction: unjustified fears? == I see that many people are eager to replace the old governance based on a single BDFL with a new governance with a new BD(FL) and/or a council. My problem is that

[python-committers] And Now for Something Completely Different

or: Replace Dictatorship with Democracy. Hi, == Introduction: unjustified fears? == I see that many people are eager to replace the old governance based on a single BDFL with a new governance with a new BD(FL) and/or a council. My problem is that I don't see any clear definition of the roles of