Guido van Rossum wrote:
The way I think of it, that refactoring has nothing to do with
yield-from.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Currently it's
*impossible* to factor out code containing a yield.
Providing a way to do that is what led me to invent
this particular version of yield-from
P.J. Eby wrote:
Now, if somebody came up with a different way to spell the extra value
return, I wouldn't object as much to that part. I can just see people
inadvertently writing 'return x' as a shortcut for 'yield x; return',
Well, they need to be educated not to do that. I'm
not sure
On 25/03/2009 10:05 AM, David Bolen wrote:
Kristján Valur Jónssonkrist...@ccpgames.com writes:
Now, I know that this msvc behaviour can be disabled, but it was
decided that it was not appropriate to meddle with runtime flags of
the whole process for python.
I must have missed that
Mark Hammond skippy.hamm...@gmail.com writes:
The issue was that Python unconditionally changed the behaviour of the
CRT, not only during the test suite.
Hmm... I was more or less referring to the state of the py3k tree as
of, say, r57823 back in 2007. It appeared to just add access to the
Right.
In fact, having embedded python25.dll into an app once, I'm inclined to think
that there is a lot of stuff that should be moved from that dll into
python.exe, like argument parsing, path magic, and so on. Py_Initialize()
really is designed in terms of python.exe
Anyway,
What I was
On 25/03/2009 7:58 PM, David Bolen wrote:
Mark Hammondskippy.hamm...@gmail.com writes:
The issue was that Python unconditionally changed the behaviour of the
CRT, not only during the test suite.
Hmm... I was more or less referring to the state of the py3k tree as
of, say, r57823 back in
I'm going to poke my contacts at Microsoft and ask them if there is a way to
disable popups like this for a process that runs unattended and/or is running
as a windows service.
There is, and Curt pointed out one strategy for achieving this without
losing the checks it provides...
Curt's
2009/3/25 Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com:
As far as memory serves, Mike built the installers precisely by using
distutils to build Windows installers. He then had to suffer criticism
from people who suggested this was inappropriately complex for pure
Python modules.
In so far as end users
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout and pip seem
to become popular. For example, the TurboGears people are considering switching
Guido van Rossum wrote:
Please don't do this. We need stable APIs. Trying to switch the entire
community to use CapWord APIs for something as commonly used as
datetime sounds like wasting a lot of cycles with no reason except the
mythical PEP 8 conformance. As I said, it's a pity we didn't
2009/3/25 Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com:
I'm going to poke my contacts at Microsoft and ask them if there is
a way to disable popups like this for a process that runs unattended
and/or is running as a windows service.
MSVC has shipped with runtime library source since the
Greg Ewing wrote:
Would you be happier if some syntactic way to do that
were provided?
It could perhaps be done by enhancing the part of the
'for' loop that gets executed upon normal termination
of the iterator.
for x in my_iter:
do_something_with(x)
else v:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout and pip
seem
to
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout and pip
seem
to
Nick Coghlan wrote:
With those two ideas combined, the PEP's yield from expansion could
then look like:
for x in EXPR:
_v = yield x
if _v is not None:
continue _v
else _r:
RESULT = _r
Oops, got a little carried away there. Obviously, that doesn't handle
thrown in
Tarek Ziadé ziade.tarek at gmail.com writes:
But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone
to far. Installing a web app like Plone is scary (+100 packages)
I am working on a TurboGears2-based app and I just did a count of the .egg
packages in the virtualenv.
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Batteries included
is the status quo for the (C) Python project, and I personally don't
see a strong reason to change that policy until those who favor a
package-manager-based solution have a package manager that satisfies
them!
Beautifully put :)
And a package
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
Tarek Ziadé ziade.tarek at gmail.com writes:
But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone
to far. Installing a web app like Plone is scary (+100 packages)
I am working on a
2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com:
I can't hear that setuptools has divided the Python community. It has provided
solutions to real problems we had in web development. It's unperfect,
and it has to be
fixed and integrated into Python. But it should not be done outside Python
imho.
Daniel (ajax) Diniz wrote:
I feel we should make the tracker more useful for core developers,
volunteers and end-users. I also think having a clear workflow helps a
lot. Yet, I'd rather have a tracker that allowed users with different
interpretations to work as they feel most comfortable than
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
Hence my comment about dividing the community. From my limited
perspective, it's about no longer having a standard Windows binary
distribution format used by all, not about some sort of ideological
battles. Sorry for being
At 06:03 PM 3/25/2009 +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:
I wanted a way of writing suspendable functions that
can call each other easily. (You may remember I
originally wanted to call it call.) Then I noticed
that it would also happen to provide the functionality
of earlier yield from suggestions, so I
At 12:25 PM 3/25/2009 +, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout
and pip seem
to become popular. For
2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com:
People should really stop splitting their work into micro-libraries (with
such
ludicrous names as AddOns or Extremes, I might add (*)), and myriads of
separately-packaged plugins (the repoze stuff). The Twisted approach is much
saner, where you
At 08:32 AM 3/25/2009 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
Sometimes it also happens that, once one such build/packaging systems
is adopted, it is difficult to switch to using another one, since apps
(... and plugins systems ...) are frequently hard-coupled to the pkg
sys «exotic features» and support (...
2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
Hence my comment about dividing the community. From my limited
perspective, it's about no longer having a standard Windows binary
distribution format used by all, not about some
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:31 AM, P.J. Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
Please note that entry points are not coupled to easy_install. They have a
documented file format and API that's *distributed* with setuptools, but is
not dependent on it and does not require .egg files, either. There's
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
And a package based solution that satisfies everyone (or even a
significant majority), be they on Windows, OS X, .deb based
Linux, .rpm
based Linux, some other Linux or *nix, be they a mere user
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
Another division (Not one I'll try to blame on setuptools, though )
Some people find larger, stable, unified packages more useful. Others
find fine-grained, rapidly developing packages more useful.
It sounds like Antoine and I fall into the
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote:
Yes but this means that you have to wait for the next version of the
big package
when a bug is corrected or a feature added, or you need to patch it.
(or maybe use the namespace trick to override it)
At 07:40 AM 3/25/2009 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Well, sorry, but this complex layered interdependent architecture is
one of the *causes* of confusion -- apart from you nobody knows what
is what exactly,
I'll pick a minor nit here... buildout, pip, and a wide variety of
other tools and
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:31 AM, P.J. Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
At 08:32 AM 3/25/2009 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
Sometimes it also happens that, once one such build/packaging systems
is adopted, it is difficult to switch to using another one, since apps
(... and plugins systems ...)
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
I'm not a Windows user, but I suppose it boils down to whether people are
comfortable with the command-line or not (which even many Windows /developers/
aren't). Since having GUIs for everything is part of the Windows
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Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Tarek Ziadé ziade.tarek at gmail.com writes:
But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone
to far. Installing a web app like Plone is scary (+100 packages)
I am working on a TurboGears2-based
Someone asked for the input of ordinary users (i.e. non developers) which,
unfortunately, most of the people on this list don't fall in. My experience
with setuptools is that it's poorly documented and assumes a level of
sophistication that isn't always there. While this is fine in a lot of
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Barry Warsaw wrote:
Maybe there's a difference between being a Zope user and using zope
packages? I think it's great that I can pick and choose
zope.interfaces and other packages in my not-Zope project. But if I'm
deploying actual
Barry Warsaw wrote:
Tools like setuptools, zc.buildout, etc. seem great for developers but
not very good for distributions. At last year's Pycon I think there was
agreement from the Linux distributors that distutils, etc. just wasn't
very useful for them.
It's decent for modules but has
At 10:11 AM 3/25/2009 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
... but Trac plugins *do require* egg files ... (AFAIK after reading
Trac docs and implementation of plugin upload from /admin/plugins, egg
cache for plugins ... and so on ...) and this is what I was talking
about ... apps (e.g. Trac) depending
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:04 AM, P.J. Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
At 10:11 AM 3/25/2009 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
... but Trac plugins *do require* egg files ... (AFAIK after reading
Trac docs and implementation of plugin upload from /admin/plugins, egg
cache for plugins ... and so on
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:34:43 -0400, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote:
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Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Tarek Ziadé ziade.tarek at gmail.com writes:
But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone
to far. Installing a web
Curt Hagenlocher c...@hagenlocher.org writes:
The variation that goes through assert.c should write to stderr for a
console-mode application, so it's reasonable to assume that we're
hitting the other code path -- and that Mark's suggestion to use
CrtSetReportMode would address the issue.
Paul Moore wrote:
2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com:
Since setuptools came on the scene, I can state with some certainty
that many packages which would otherwise have been distributed as
bdist_wininst installers, now aren't. In some cases, only source
packages are provided (on the
Yes it's on the agenda
On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:46 PM, s...@pobox.com wrote:
Is setuptools/distutils/whatever on the agenda for the tomorrow's
language
summit? Or is there some other get-together at PyCon for this?
Skip
___
Python-Dev mailing list
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
I use Python for systems admin scripts, Windows services, and database
management. In my experience (and I agree, it's only one, limited, use
case) availability of download-and-run bdist_wininst installers for
every package
GSOC?
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 6:05 AM, Steven Bethard steven.beth...@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
I use Python for systems admin scripts, Windows services, and database
management. In my experience (and I agree, it's only one,
Sounds better than being hit by a bus, though! :)
2009/3/24 Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org:
I've received several emails recently indicating that someone is
trying to get me unsubscribed from python-dev. I'm sure they're just
pranksters, but just in case they succeed, if I seem to be absent
Hi all,
just a quick note -- anyone who has an idea for a core Python Google
Summer of Code project, has not had that project panned on this list ;),
and is willing to act as a CONTACT for students who want to apply (not
necessarily a mentor!) should make sure that those ideas are posted on
the
Yes,
I'll try to blog today the initial list of topics that will be
discussed during the Summit,
Regards
Tarek
2009/3/25 Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com:
Yes it's on the agenda
On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:46 PM, s...@pobox.com wrote:
Is setuptools/distutils/whatever on the agenda for the
Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com writes:
If you would, I'd appreciate it. Sometimes I feel that the
distutils/setuptools discussions need better input from the
non-web-developer community. And even more so from the not a
developer, just a user community!
And the often-obscured community: those
2009/3/25 Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu:
Is it possible to write an egg to bdist converter (or vice versa)?
No idea. But would it help? Distributors would still only provide one
or the other, so when only an egg is available, I'd still have to
convert it - which is certainly pretty simple, but so
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:16 AM, David Cournapeau wrote:
It fails for software I am directly involved in, or maybe the layer
just below: for example, there is no way for me to get a python 2.6 on
my distribution (Ubuntu), so I cannot easily test the
I would suggest there may be three use cases for Python installation tools.
Bonus -- I'm not a web developer! :)
Case One: Developer wishing to install additional functionality into the
system Python interpreter forever
Case Two: Developer wishing to install additional functionality into the
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Olemis Lang wrote:
Yes you're right, Trac requires .egg files for local plugins installs
(... in /plugins folder ;) so that not all environments but only one
be able to use the plugin ... but that's not exactly what
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
If anything, Twisted's example shows how monolithic packages are
easier
all-around than micro-packages. We basically have the release
infrastructure
to release Twisted in many smaller
At 01:29 PM 3/25/2009 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
Paul Moore wrote:
2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com:
Since setuptools came on the scene, I can state with some certainty
that many packages which would otherwise have been distributed as
bdist_wininst installers, now aren't. In some
At 06:08 PM 3/25/2009 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I've found setuptools entry points difficult to work with for plugins,
I'd be interested in hearing more about your specific difficulties,
although it's probably off-topic for Python-Dev. Perhaps via the
distutils-sig, since we don't have a
At 11:35 AM 3/25/2009 -0500, Olemis Lang wrote:
Yes you're right, Trac requires .egg files for local plugins installs
(... in /plugins folder ;) so that not all environments but only one
be able to use the plugin ... but that's not exactly what I'm saying,
since setuptools AFAIK *MUST* be
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
For case one, where I want to install additional functionality into my
system Python interpreter forever, it would be great to have my
system
manage this.
In fact, I think it /has/ to.
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:24 PM, P.J. Eby wrote:
At 06:08 PM 3/25/2009 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I've found setuptools entry points difficult to work with for
plugins,
I'd be interested in hearing more about your specific difficulties,
although
Barry In fact, I think it /has/ to. I'll go further and say that I'm
Barry very wary of using easy_install and the like to install
Barry non-distro provided packages into the system Python.
Give that man a ceegar. The pyjamas author seems to have a different
opinion about
Ben Finney bignose+hates-s...@benfinney.id.au writes:
And the often-obscured community: those who desperately want the
Python stuff to just behave the same way everything else on their
system does, i.e. be managed approrpiately by the operating system
package manager. A Python-specific
Tennessee Leeuwenburg writes:
GSOC?
No. This is territory that nobody knows how to mentor yet, ya know?
Try it now, and the poor student is likely to find him or herself at
the center of a firestorm!
Maybe next year
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Python-Dev mailing list
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:26 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote:
Tennessee Leeuwenburg writes:
GSOC?
No. This is territory that nobody knows how to mentor yet, ya know?
Try it now, and the poor student is likely to find him or herself at
the center of a firestorm!
No, we
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:26 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org
wrote:
Tennessee Leeuwenburg writes:
GSOC?
No. This is territory that nobody knows how to mentor yet, ya know?
Try it now, and the poor
s...@pobox.com wrote:
Barry In fact, I think it /has/ to. I'll go further and say that I'm
Barry very wary of using easy_install and the like to install
Barry non-distro provided packages into the system Python.
Give that man a ceegar. The pyjamas author seems to have a
Jeff Hall wrote:
Someone asked for the input of ordinary users (i.e. non developers)
which, unfortunately, most of the people on this list don't fall in. My
experience with setuptools is that it's poorly documented and assumes a
level of sophistication that isn't always there. While this is
Tools like setuptools, zc.buildout, etc. seem great for developers but
not very good for distributions. At last year's Pycon I think there was
agreement from the Linux distributors that distutils, etc. just wasn't
very useful for them.
I think distutils is different here - it not only helps
http://bugs.python.org/setuptools/issue63
I don't understand how that can possibly be manageable.
Steve Note that the issue contains a broken link.
Fixed. Looks like a Roundup bug.
Skip
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On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
Please don't do this. We need stable APIs. Trying to switch the entire
community to use CapWord APIs for something as commonly used as
datetime sounds like wasting a lot of cycles with no reason
On Mar 25, 2009, at 5:25 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
community quite badly.
Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout
and pip seem
to become popular. For
Hi,
Sorry for the cross-post, but it seemed appropriate since packaging is
being discussed in python-dev tonight,
- Here are the first results for the packaging survey:
http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/packaging-survey-first-results/
- And tomorrow's Summit schedule for the packaging
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
If that perception is accurate, then any changes likely need to focus on
the *opposite* end of the toolchain: the part between the common
packaging spec and the end users.
Yes - but is this part the job of python ?
In
ISTR that the motivation for adding new syntax is that the best you
can do using a trampoline library is still pretty cumbersome to use
when you have to write a lot of tasks and subtasks, and when using
tasks is just a tool for getting things done rather than an end goal
in itself. I agree that
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
Greg Ewing wrote:
Would you be happier if some syntactic way to do that
were provided?
It could perhaps be done by enhancing the part of the
'for' loop that gets executed upon normal termination
of the iterator.
for
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
Tools like setuptools, zc.buildout, etc. seem great for developers but not
very good for distributions. At last year's Pycon I think there was
agreement from the Linux distributors that distutils, etc. just wasn't very
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Greg Ewing
greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
Guido van Rossum wrote:
The way I think of it, that refactoring has nothing to do with
yield-from.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Currently it's
*impossible* to factor out code containing a yield.
That's
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 5:19 AM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
If that perception is accurate, then any changes likely need to focus on
the *opposite* end of the toolchain: the part between the common
Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
Having helped with that kind of rename once (and for a relatively small
API at that), I'd want a *really* compelling reason before ever going
through it again - it's messy, tedious and a really good
Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
It could perhaps be done by enhancing the part of the
'for' loop that gets executed upon normal termination
of the iterator.
for x in my_iter:
do_something_with(x)
else v:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 5:32 AM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote:
If distutils was split into different modules (one for the build, one
for the compiler/platform configuration, one for the installation),
which could be extended, tweaked, it would be much better. But the
distutils
Tarek Ziadé wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 5:19 AM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote:
Why coming from eggs and not from the build tool provided by python
itself (distutils) ? I don't see what eggs brings - specially since
the format is not even standardized.
I don't think the egg
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 5:32 AM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote:
If distutils was split into different modules (one for the build, one
for the compiler/platform configuration, one for the installation),
which
David Cournapeau writes:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
If that perception is accurate, then any changes likely need to focus on
the *opposite* end of the toolchain: the part between the common
packaging spec and the end users.
Yes -
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