On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:36:05 -0800
Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 01/13/2014 08:09 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:59:10 -0800
> > Guido van Rossum wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou
> >> wrote:
> >>> What is the use case for embedding a quoted ASCII-enc
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:36:05 -0800
Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 01/13/2014 08:09 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:59:10 -0800
> > Guido van Rossum wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou
> >> wrote:
> >>> What is the use case for embedding a quoted ASCII-enco
On 14 January 2014 01:54, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 01/13/2014 01:13 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>
>> On 13 Jan 2014 17:43, "Ethan Furman" wrote:
>>>
>>> On 01/12/2014 10:51 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
I am a strong -1 on the more lenient proposal, as it makes binary
interpolation in Py
On 01/13/2014 01:13 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 13 Jan 2014 17:43, "Ethan Furman" wrote:
On 01/12/2014 10:51 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
I am a strong -1 on the more lenient proposal, as it makes binary
interpolation in Python 3 an *unsafe operation* for ASCII incompatible
binary formats.
No more
On 01/13/2014 07:52 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jan 12, 2014, at 09:45 PM, Glenn Linderman wrote:
Quotes in the stream are a great debug hint, without blowing up.
They actually terrible for debugging for exactly the same reason as coercion
in Python 2. It's rarely what you really want, it sil
On 13 January 2014 23:57, Augie Fackler wrote:
> (sorry for not piling on any existing threads - I don't subscribe to
> python-dev due to lack of time)
>
> Brett Cannon asked me to chime in - I haven't actually read the very long
> thread at this point, I'm just providing responses to things Brett
On 01/13/2014 08:09 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:59:10 -0800
Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
What is the use case for embedding a quoted ASCII-encoded representation
in a byte stream?
It doesn't crash but produces undesired
On 01/13/2014 02:48 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Ethan Furman writes:
The part that you don't seem to acknowledge (sorry if I missed it)
is that there are str-like methods already on bytes.
I haven't expressed myself well, but I don't much care about that.
You don't care that there are st
(sorry for not piling on any existing threads - I don't subscribe to
python-dev due to lack of time)
Brett Cannon asked me to chime in - I haven't actually read the very long
thread at this point, I'm just providing responses to things Brett
mentioned:
1) What do we need in terms of functionality
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:59:10 -0800
Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > What is the use case for embedding a quoted ASCII-encoded representation
> > in a byte stream?
>
> It doesn't crash but produces undesired output (always, not only when
> the d
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> What is the use case for embedding a quoted ASCII-encoded representation
> in a byte stream?
It doesn't crash but produces undesired output (always, not only when
the data is non-ASCII) that gives the developer a hint to think about
encodin
On 01/13/2014 01:49 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
'%s' can't work in 3.5, as we must differentiate between
strings which meed to be encoded and bytes which don't.
I don't understand this objection:
def __mod__(self, other):
if isinstance(other, bytes):
# no encoding necessary
elif
On Jan 12, 2014, at 09:45 PM, Glenn Linderman wrote:
>Quotes in the stream are a great debug hint, without blowing up.
They actually terrible for debugging for exactly the same reason as coercion
in Python 2. It's rarely what you really want, it silently succeeds, and it
means that the user visi
On Jan 12, 2014, at 06:11 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>Perhaps not, but it's a hint that you should probably think about an
>encoding. It's symmetric with how '%s' % b'x' returns "b'x'". Think of
>it as payback time. :-)
Which unfortunately causes no end of headaches, often difficult to debug.
h
Glenn Linderman writes:
> On 1/12/2014 4:08 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> Glenn Linderman writes:
>>> the proposals to embed binary in Unicode by abusing Latin-1
>>> encoding.
>> Those aren't "proposals", they are currently feasible
>> techniques in Python 3 for *some* use cases. The qu
On 13/01/2014 07:59, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 01/12/2014 11:15 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
The proponents (myself, you, Stufft, Eric Smith, et al*) are arguing
that bytes already has an ASCII bias, already has ASCII string methods,
that it isn't the same as the Py2 world because if you combine
On 13 January 2014 09:08, Fabio Zadrozny wrote:
> Hi Python-dev.
>
> I'm playing a bit on the concept on live-coding during a debug session and
> one of the most annoying things is that although I can reload the code for a
> function (using something close to xreload), it seems it's not possible t
On 13 January 2014 17:59, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 01/12/2014 11:15 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>
>> (It's too late here to write more, but it looks like we are in for a
>> bitter fight. :-( )
>
>
> It's already been a bitter fight.
>
> The opponents of %-interpolation (Nick, Antoine, Turnbull
On 13 January 2014 17:15, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>> All it takes is to let go of the idea "I wish the Python 3 bytes type
>> was more like the Python 2 str type" and instead think "hmm, the
>> Python 3 bytes type doesn't seem like a great f
On 13 January 2014 08:46, Brett Cannon wrote:
> I don't know about the rest of you but I feel like the discussion is heading
> off the rails (if it hasn't already jumped the tracks). Let's try to bring
> this back around to something actionable which people can focus their energy
> on as the amoun
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:11:47 -0800
Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> > On 01/12/2014 04:47 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> >> %s seems the trickiest: I think with a bytes argument it should just
> >> insert those bytes (and the padding modifiers should
On 13 Jan 2014 17:14, "Donald Stufft" wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2014, at 1:59 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>
> > On 13 January 2014 16:52, Donald Stufft wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jan 13, 2014, at 12:45 AM, Glenn Linderman
wrote:
> >>
> >> So then the question is whether to proceed with 3.4, delay this
featu
Ethan Furman writes:
> The part that you don't seem to acknowledge (sorry if I missed it)
> is that there are str-like methods already on bytes.
I haven't expressed myself well, but I don't much care about that.
It's what Knuth would classify as a seminumerical method. What I do
care about is
On 01/12/2014 11:15 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
(It's too late here to write more, but it looks like we are in for a
bitter fight. :-( )
It's already been a bitter fight.
The opponents of %-interpolation (Nick, Antoine, Turnbull, D'Aprano, et al*) all seem to be arguing basically what Nick
s
On 13/01/14 09:19, Glenn Linderman wrote:
On 1/13/2014 12:46 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
On 13/01/14 03:47, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 01/12/2014 06:16 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
If you do :
--> b'%s' % 'some text'
Ignore what I previousl
On 1/13/2014 12:46 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
On 13/01/14 03:47, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Ethan Furman
wrote:
On 01/12/2014 06:16 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
If you do :
--> b'%s' % 'some text'
Ignore what I previously said. With no encoding the result would be
On 13 Jan 2014 17:43, "Ethan Furman" wrote:
>
> On 01/12/2014 10:51 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am a strong -1 on the more lenient proposal, as it makes binary
>> interpolation in Python 3 an *unsafe operation* for ASCII incompatible
>> binary formats.
>
>
> No more unsafe that calling .upp
On 13.01.2014 07:51, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>
> [Using a new asciistr type]
>
> The key thing that the text model change in Python 3 enabled is for us
> to use the type system to *help* with managing the complexity of
> dealing with text encodings. We've got a long way with just the two
> pure types,
On 13/01/14 03:47, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 01/12/2014 06:16 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
If you do :
--> b'%s' % 'some text'
Ignore what I previously said. With no encoding the result would be:
b"'some text'"
So an encoding should def
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