Re: [Python-Dev] Standard library vs Standard distribution?

On 29Nov2018 1229, Paul Moore wrote: On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 18:09, Steve Dower wrote: Maintaining a list of "we recommend these so strongly here's an installer that will give them to you" is a very different kind of burden, and one that is significantly easier to bear. OK,

Re: [Python-Dev] Standard library vs Standard distribution?

On 29Nov2018 1020, Antoine Pitrou wrote: It's just _hard_ and an awful lot of work, and apparently you're not volunteering to start it. So saying "we should make an extended distribution" if you're just waiting for others to do the job doesn't sound convincing to me, it just feels like you are d

Re: [Python-Dev] Standard library vs Standard distribution?

On 29Nov2018 0923, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I think the whole argument amounts to hand waving anyway. You are inventing an extended distribution which doesn't exist (except as Anaconda) to justify that we shouldn't accept more modules in the stdlib. But obviously maintaining an extended distributi

Re: [Python-Dev] Inclusion of lz4 bindings in stdlib?

On 29Nov2018 0254, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I'd like to point the discussion is asymmetric here. On the one hand, people who don't have access to PyPI would _really_ benefit from a larger stdlib with more batteries included. On the other hand, people who have access to PyPI _don't_ benefit from ha

Re: [Python-Dev] C API changes

On 28Nov2018 2208, Armin Rigo wrote: Hi Steve, On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 at 19:14, Steve Dower wrote: On 27Nov2018 0609, Victor Stinner wrote: Note: Again, in my plan, the new C API would be an opt-in API. The old C API would remain unchanged and fully supported. So there is no impact on

Re: [Python-Dev] C API changes

On 27Nov2018 0609, Victor Stinner wrote: Note: Again, in my plan, the new C API would be an opt-in API. The old C API would remain unchanged and fully supported. So there is no impact on performance if you consider to use the old C API. This is one of the things that makes me think your plan is

Re: [Python-Dev] bpo-34532 status

It's merged now. Sorry for not seeing the update (I get far too many github notifications/emails to be able to pay attention to them - pinging on the issue tracker generally works best). Cheers, Steve On 20Nov2018 1002, Brett Cannon wrote: To provide context, https://bugs.python.org/issue34532

Re: [Python-Dev] Get a running instance of the doc for a PR.

On 04Nov2018 0812, Julien Palard wrote: I can trivially attach the built docs as a ZIP file to the Azure Pipelines build, though that doesn't help the "preview on my phone" So one can build an HTTP server that gathers doc builds from Azure and expose them? Either that, or Azure can push it d

Re: [Python-Dev] Get a running instance of the doc for a PR.

On 04Nov2018 0718, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 2:11 AM Julien Palard via Python-Dev wrote: Considering feedback from Ned, what about building this as an independent service? We don't really need to interface with python.org at all, we just need some hardware, a domain, some

Re: [Python-Dev] windows compiler list missing 3.7 details on wiki

Yes. Visual Studio 2015 or later can be used (and as this is the only way to get the compiler right now, I think it's fine to list that as the requirement - note that the "Visual Studio Build Tools" installer doesn't include the IDE itself). Feel free to update the wiki. Cheers, Steve On 03N

Re: [Python-Dev] Rename Include/internals/ to Include/pycore/

I assume the redundancy was there to handle the naming collision problem, but a better way to do that is to have only header files that users should ever use in "include/", and put the rest inside "include/python/" and "include/internal/" (and if possible, we don't distribute the internal direc

Re: [Python-Dev] short-circuiting runtime errors/exceptions in python debugger.

On 29Oct2018 1709, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > I also wonder if it would be useful to give pdb the ability to break > when an exception is *raised*, rather than when it's caught? This is basically the first feature I implemented as an intern at Microsoft back in 2011 :) (for Visual Studio's Python de

Re: [Python-Dev] "Deprecation" of os.system in favor of subprocess?

On 24Oct2018 0934, Calvin Spealman wrote: In the spirit of "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." this makes perfect sense. To do what? There is one obvious way to run a system command, and one obvious way to manage subprocesses. There are also many non-obvious

Re: [Python-Dev] "Deprecation" of os.system in favor of subprocess?

On 24Oct2018 0435, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:05:21 +0200 Stephane Wirtel wrote: 1. Add the 'deprecated' directive in the doc 2. Use subprocess for these references What is your opinion? I don't think it's useful to deprecate something that works fine for the intended purpo

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 22Oct2018 1047, Steve Dower wrote: On 22Oct2018 1007, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: 22.10.18 16:24, Steve Dower пише: Yes, that's true. But "should reduce ... footprint" is also an optimisation that deserves a benchmark by that standard. Also, I'm proposing keeping the 

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 22Oct2018 1007, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: 22.10.18 16:24, Steve Dower пише: Yes, that's true. But "should reduce ... footprint" is also an optimisation that deserves a benchmark by that standard. Also, I'm proposing keeping the 'kind' as UCS-2 when the string is

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 22Oct2018 0928, Victor Stinner wrote: Also, I'm proposing keeping the 'kind' as UCS-2 when the string is created from UCS-2 data that is likely to be used as UCS-2. Oh. That's a major change in the PEP 393 design. You would have to modify many functions in CPython. Currently, the PEP 393 req

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 22Oct2018 0913, Victor Stinner wrote: Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 15:08, Steve Dower a écrit : Agreed the cache is useless here, but since the listdir() result came in as wchar_t we could keep it that way (assuming we'd only be changing it to char), and then there wouldn't ha

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 22Oct2018 0413, Victor Stinner wrote: For code like "for name in os.listdir(): open(name): " (replace listdir with scandir if you want to get file metadata), the cache is useless, since the fresh string has to be converted to wchar_t* anyway, and the cache is destroyed at the end of the lo

Re: [Python-Dev] The future of the wchar_t cache

On 20Oct2018 0901, Stefan Behnel wrote: I'd be happy to get rid of it. But regarding the use under Windows, I wonder if there's interest in keeping it as a special Windows-only feature, e.g. to speed up the data exchange with the Win32 APIs. I guess it would have to provide a visible (performance

Re: [Python-Dev] Store startup modules as C structures for 20%+ startup speed improvement?

On 18Sep2018 1057, Carl Shapiro wrote: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:55 AM, Fabio Zadrozny > wrote: During the import process, Python can already deal with folders and .zip files in sys.path... now, instead of having special handling for a new concept with a cus

Re: [Python-Dev] SEC: Spectre variant 2: GCC: -mindirect-branch=thunk -mindirect-branch-register

On 17Sep2018 1158, Wes Turner wrote: On Monday, September 17, 2018, Steve Dower <mailto:steve.do...@python.org>> wrote: I investigated this thoroughly some time ago (when the MSVC flags became available) and determined (with the help of some of the original Spectre

Re: [Python-Dev] SEC: Spectre variant 2: GCC: -mindirect-branch=thunk -mindirect-branch-register

I investigated this thoroughly some time ago (when the MSVC flags became available) and determined (with the help of some of the original Spectre/Meltdown investigation team) that there is no significant value in enabling these flags for Python. It boiled down to: * Python allows arbitrary cod

Re: [Python-Dev] We cannot fix all issues: let's close XML security issues (not fix them)

On 06Sep2018 0758, Victor Stinner wrote: Are you volunteer to fix the XML modules? If Christian is not able to keep maintaining the defused* packages, then I may take a look at this next week at the sprints. The built-in XML packages actually don't meet Microsoft's internal security requireme

Re: [Python-Dev] [python-committers] Winding down 3.4

“So that 3.4 dies in good health?” More like getting all its evil deeds off its chest on the death bed, I think :) Top-posted from my Windows 10 phone From: Antoine Pitrou Sent: Monday, 13 August 2018 2:59 To: Larry Hastings; python-committers; Python-Dev Subject: Re: [python-committers] Winding

Re: [Python-Dev] A Subtle Bug in Class Initializations

On 10Aug2018 0354, Erik Bray wrote: Thanks! I'm not sure what you mean by "on other OS's" though. Do you mean other OS's that happen to use Windows-style PE/COFF binaries? Because other than Windows I'm not sure what we care about there. For ELF binaries, at least on Linux (and probably elsewh

Re: [Python-Dev] A Subtle Bug in Class Initializations

On 09Aug2018 0818, Erik Bray wrote: On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:11 PM Eddie Elizondo wrote: 3) Special case the initialization of PyType_Type and PyBaseObject_Type within PyType_Ready to now make all calls to PyVarObject_HEAD_INIT use NULL. To enable this a small change within PyType_Ready is ne

Re: [Python-Dev] Using Cython for the stdlib (was: Let's change to CAPI!)

I don’t think there would be any trouble linking in the generated C files. The built in modules like this just have their *_init() functions called at startup, so possibly nothing would even change. Top-posted from my Windows 10 phone From: Brett Cannon Sent: Wednesday, 1 August 2018 17:20 To:

Re: [Python-Dev] Tests failing on Windows with TESTFN

From: eryk sun Sent: Sunday, 29 July 2018 15:28 To: python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Tests failing on Windows with TESTFN On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Steve Dower wrote: > > One additional thing that may help (if support.unlink doesn't already do it) > is to ren

Re: [Python-Dev] Testing C API

On 29Jul2018 1253, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: The benefit is that it will be easier to run all C API tests at once, and only them, and it will be clearer what C API is covered by tests. The disadvantage is that you will need to run several files for testing marshal for example. Can we make the r

Re: [Python-Dev] Tests failing on Windows with TESTFN

On 29Jul2018 0958, Tim Golden wrote: In the interests of trying to keep a focus to the changes I'm making, I propose to start again by, as you suggest, making use of test.support.unlink where it's not currently used. From the evidence I don't believe that will solve every problem I'm seeing but

Re: [Python-Dev] [Windows] how to prevent the wrong version of zlib1.dll to be used by lib-dynload modules

In general, if the dependent DLL is in the same directory as the module loading it (the .pyd or .exe), then it should be loaded first. If it's alongside the .exe, it should be loaded before any of the other search paths. If it's being loaded directly from Python, your best option is to resolve

Re: [Python-Dev] why is not 64-bit installer the default download link for Windows?

On 09Jul2018 0922, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:01:00 -0700 Steve Dower wrote: I've thought a bit about making a single installer that can offer the option of 32-bit/64-bit at install time, but I don't actually think it's that big a problem to deserve that m

Re: [Python-Dev] why is not 64-bit installer the default download link for Windows?

On 09Jul2018 0927, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: On 09.07.2018 19:01, Steve Dower wrote: Perhaps we should add non-button text below the button saying "Get the 64-bit version"? Maybe infer the bitness from User-Agent instead. This seems to be the trend among official sites

Re: [Python-Dev] why is not 64-bit installer the default download link for Windows?

On 09Jul2018 0803, Cosimo Lupo wrote: If one goes to httWhps://www.python.org/downloads  from a Windows browser, the default download URL is for the 32-bit installer instead of the 64-bit one. I wonder why is this still the case? Shouldn't we encourage new Wind

Re: [Python-Dev] A "day of silence" on PEP 572?

There has been off-list discussion with the authors, for sure. But most of the recent threads are disputes and not useful. At this point, if you're not helping clarify what’s in the PEP, you’re not helping by posting an opinion. But since we can’t possibly convince everyone not to post their op

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572 semantics

On 04Jul2018 1518, Tim Peters wrote: > The only new thing is specifying the scope of `a`, where "local to f" > means exactly the same thing as for any other name local to a function > today.  So far as the PEP semantics go, it doesn't even matter whether > an implementation _does_ implement some fo

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572 semantics

On 04Jul2018 1021, Tim Peters wrote: Same as now, `i` is local to the synthetic nested function created for the genexp.  The scope of `a` is determined by pretending the assignment occurred in the block containing the outermost (textually - static analysis) comprehension.  In this case, `a = an

[Python-Dev] PEP 572 semantics

Now that it's a done deal, I am closely reviewing the semantics section of PEP 572. (I had expected one more posting of the final PEP, but it seems the acceptance came somewhere in a thread that was already muted.) Since there has been no final posting that I'm aware of, I'm referring to https://w

Re: [Python-Dev] A more flexible task creation

On 14Jun2018 1214, Chris Barker via Python-Dev wrote: Excuse my ignorance (or maybe it's a vocabulary thing), but I'm trying to understand the problem here. But if I have this right: I've been using asyncio a lot lately and have encountered this problem several times. Imagine you want

Re: [Python-Dev] Forward of moderated message

I doubt responding to python-list-bounces made it back, so I've added the emails from the original message. As Brett says, this is clearly someone else's build of Python (for starters, Python 2.7 should not be using ucrtbase.dll), so you would be best to track them down. Also, the best address fo

Re: [Python-Dev] Compact GC Header

Looks like it breaks the 3.7 ABI, which is certainly not allowed at this time. But it’s not a limited API structure, so no problem for 3.8. Top-posted from my Windows 10 phone From: Victor Stinner Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 6:44 To: INADA Naoki Cc: Python-Dev Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Compact G

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP: 576 Title: Rationalize Built-in function classes

On 22May2018 0741, Guido van Rossum wrote: ISTR there are plenty of PEPs that never get posted to python-ideas because they are discussed on a separate list. There are often better venues for the initial discussion (such as security-sig, distutils-sig or datetime-sig), but I think that's ort

Re: [Python-Dev] Procedure for adding new public C API

On 21May2018 0708, Paul Moore wrote: On 21 May 2018 at 14:42, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: Is it even acceptable to add a symbol into the limited ABI? I thought the idea was that if I linked with python3.dll, my code would work with any version of Python 3? By introducing new symbols, code linked wi

Re: [Python-Dev] please help triage VSTS failures

t fix here may not be immediately sufficient. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Nathaniel Smith Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 17:34 To: Steve Dower Cc: Zachary Ware; Python-Dev Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] please help triage VSTS failures On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Steve Dower wrote: > Acco

Re: [Python-Dev] please help triage VSTS failures

Unfamiliar maybe, though I’m a big fan of separating build and test logs. If anyone is motivated enough to make unittest/regrtest generate Junit format XML then we can get a nice breakdown by individual test, too, which would save scrolling through the log entirely. The asyncio instability is a

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] bpo-33522: Enable CI builds onVisual Studio Team Services (GH-6865) (GH-6925)

? That is inappropriate for something claiming to merely enable a CI platform. -gps On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:50 AM Steve Dower wrote: https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/0d8f83f59c8f4cc7fe125434ca4ecdcac111810f commit: 0d8f83f59c8f4cc7fe125434ca4ecdcac111810f branch: 3.6 author: Steve Dower

Re: [Python-Dev] What is the rationale behind source only releases?

On 17May2018 1004, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 May 2018 at 09:57 Paul Moore > wrote: > > On 17 May 2018 at 14:42, Brett Cannon > wrote: > > > > If I understand things correctly, our planned migration to VSTS > wi

[Python-Dev] Visual Studio Team Services checks on pull requests

Hi python-dev Just drawing your attention to a change we're currently working through on github. There are more details on my post on python-committers at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-May/005404.html but this is the short version. Microsoft has donated a significant am

Re: [Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

“the data shows that a focused change to address file system inefficiencies has the potential to broadly and transparently deliver benefit to users without affecting existing code or workflows.” This is consistent with a Node.js experiment I heard about where they compiled an entire application

Re: [Python-Dev] Slow down...

A moratorium on new features to focus on cleaning up and planning for transition away from the 2.7 compatibility features that still exist? The most obvious being the libraries that we promised not to remove until 2.7 EOL. Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Barry Warsaw Sent: Monday, May 7,

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

there is the funny story of bytes filenames on Windows. I deprecated this feature in Windows 3.3 since it was broken. I really wanted hard to remove support for bytes filenames on Windows. One day, Steve Dower showed up with the PEP 529 "Change Windows filesystem encoding to UTF-8" and

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

This example makes me want “if expr as name:” (same semantics as ‘with’, and the name is always bound to the expression result regardless of truthiness), but doesn’t move me on assignment expressions. Cheers, Steve Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Guido van Rossum Sent: Saturday, April 2

Re: [Python-Dev] https://bugs.python.org/issue33127 breaks pip / easy_install / pipenv etc in corporate networks on MS Windows using self-signed certificates

On 17Apr2018 0246, Oleg Sivokon wrote: It is common practice in corporate networks that connect MS Windows machines to redirect all (encrypted included) traffic through company's router. For this purpose routers are usually configured to act as a CA. However, the certificate issued by such "

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

Agree with Paul. The PEP is well thought out and well presented, but I really don’t think we need this in Python (and I say this as someone who uses it regularly in C/C#). -1 on the idea; no disrespect intended toward to people who did a lot of work on it. Top-posted from my Windows phone Fro

Re: [Python-Dev] Soliciting comments on the future of the cmdmodule (bpo-33233)

Better to deprecate it before it becomes broken, in my opinion. Having someone willing and able to review and merge changes is the best criteria for whether a module is still supported or not. Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Raymond Hettinger Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 18:55 To: Ned Dei

Re: [Python-Dev] Move ensurepip blobs to external place

Or we could just pull the right version directly from PyPI? (Note that updating the version should be an explicit step, as it is today, but the file should be identical to what’s on PyPI, right? And a urlretrieve is easier than pulling from a git repo.) Top-posted from my Windows phone From: P

Re: [Python-Dev] Better support for consuming vendored packages

FWIW, this is a topic I was planning to bring up at the language summit this year, so for those who are going to be there and want to toss around ideas (mine is nearly developed enough to present, but not quite yet), bring them. That said, I don’t think relying on relative imports within a packa

Re: [Python-Dev] How is the GitHub workflow working for people?

It then becomes grunt work for reviewers, who also have to carefully balance encouraging new contributors against preventing the code base from getting worse. I’d rather have a review bot that can detect problems in PRs and comment on them. We can choose to merge anyway and it won’t keep being

Re: [Python-Dev] Why is Python for Windows compiled with MSVC?

Because every other supported platform builds using the native tools, so why shouldn’t the one with the most users? I’m likely biased because I work there and I’m the main intermediary with python-dev, but these days Microsoft is one of the strongest supporters of CPython. We employ the most co

Re: [Python-Dev] GH-NNNN vs #NNNN in merge commit

-1 on using magic words in comments rather than the normal UI. Perhaps one of the bots could post a reminder at a time when it makes sense? All checks passed, maybe? Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Brett Cannon Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 6:01 To: Berker Peksağ Cc: Python Dev Subject:

Re: [Python-Dev] python exe installer is broken

And please include all the Python log files from your %TEMP% directory. On 18Jan2018 0802, Brett Cannon wrote: This seems like a bug report and is best reported on bugs.python.org . On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 at 08:05 Joshua Yeow > wrote: Dear

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.7: Require OpenSSL >=1.0.2 / LibreSSL>=2.5.3

;=2.5.3 On 2018-01-16 08:08, Steve Dower wrote: > From my perspective, we can’t keep an OpenSSL-like API and use Windows > platform libraries (we *could* do a requests-like API easily enough, but > even urllib3 is painfully low-level). > >   > > We have to continue shipping ou

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.7: Require OpenSSL >=1.0.2 / LibreSSL >=2.5.3

OpenSSL >=1.0.2 / LibreSSL >=2.5.3 On 2018-01-16 12:28, Wes Turner wrote: > > > On Tuesday, January 16, 2018, Steve Dower <mailto:steve.do...@python.org>> wrote: > > From my perspective, we can’t keep an OpenSSL-like API and use > Windows platform librari

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.7: Require OpenSSL >=1.0.2 / LibreSSL >=2.5.3

>From my perspective, we can’t keep an OpenSSL-like API and use Windows >platform libraries (we could do a requests-like API easily enough, but even >urllib3 is painfully low-level). We have to continue shipping our own copy of OpenSSL on Windows. Nothing to negotiate here except whether OpenSS

Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

I’m generally +1, though I don’t see an easy migration path. Moving to a node.js project model might be feasible, but I suspect our real solution will end up having to be ensuring use of -s where it’s needed. Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Christian Heimes Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018

Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASE] Python 3.7.0a4 is now available fortesting

FWIW, the ansi and mbcs encodings on Windows do exactly this (as does the oem encoding with a minor twist). Feel free to reuse either alias if it makes sense, or make sure a new one also works on Windows. Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Victor Stinner Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3

Re: [Python-Dev] subprocess not escaping "^" on Windows

On 09Jan2018 0744, eryk sun wrote: It's common to discourage using `shell=True` because it's considered insecure. One of the reasons to use CMD in Windows is that it tries ShellExecuteEx if CreateProcess fails. ShellExecuteEx supports "App Paths" commands, file actions (open, edit, print), UAC el

Re: [Python-Dev] subprocess not escaping "^" on Windows

Quoting the /c and /k values to cmd.exe is... complicated, to say the least. I struggle to get it right for a single example, let alone generalising it. The /s option also has an impact – sometimes it helps you avoid double-escaping everything, but not always. Writing complex shell=True command

Re: [Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

On 19Dec2017 1004, Chris Barker wrote: Nathaniel Smith has pointed out that eval(pprint(a_dict)) is supposed to return the same dict -- so documented behavior may already be broken. Two relevant quotes from the pprint module docs: >>> The pprint module provides a capability to “pretty-print” a

Re: [Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

On 18Dec2017 2309, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > [A LOT OF THINGS I AGREE WITH] I agree completely with Steven's reasoning here, and it bothers me that what is an irrelevant change to many users (dict becoming ordered) seems to imply that all users of dict have to be updated. I have never needed Ordere

Re: [Python-Dev] PEPs: ``.. code:: python`` or ``::`` (syntaxhighlighting)

I tried using code blocks while writing PEP 551 but they weren’t highlighted on the python.org rendering. Personally I think it would be great, provided a good colour scheme is available (some default schemes are... not always works of art). I’m not sure who is responsible for that side of thin

Re: [Python-Dev] Python initialization and embedded Python

On 17Nov2017 1601, Victor Stinner wrote: In short, it means that using the "Python runtime" before it's initialized by _PyRuntime_Initialize() is now likely to crash. For example, calling PyMem_RawMalloc(), before calling _PyRuntime_Initialize(), now calls the function NULL: dereference a NULL po

Re: [Python-Dev] Python possible vulnerabilities in concurrency

On 15Nov2017 2053, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Guido van Rossum > wrote: So far I learned one thing from the report. They use the term "vulnerabilities" liberally, defining it essentially as "bug": All programming languages contain con

Re: [Python-Dev] Partial support of a platform

On 06Nov2017 0941, Victor Stinner wrote: [SNIP] But the question here is more about "partial" support. While changes are usually short, I dislike applying them to Python 2.7 and/or Python 3.6, until a platform is fully support. I prefer to first see a platform fully supported to see how much ch

Re: [Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

Since there is voting going on, -1 on changing the guarantees of `dict`. If ordering is important, OrderedDict is more explicit and more obvious to the over reading the code, even if the underlying implementation is identical. Good luck teaching people about why Python went from OrderedDict to

Re: [Python-Dev] Remove typing from the stdlib

On 03Nov2017 1124, Guido van Rossum wrote: A side note (I'm reading all responses but staying out of the discussion): No static checker should depend on the *contents* of typing.py, since it's just a bunch of runtime gymnastics to allow types to be evaluated at runtime without errors, with a s

Re: [Python-Dev] Remove typing from the stdlib

On 03Nov2017 0915, Victor Stinner wrote: Hi, 2017-11-03 15:36 GMT+01:00 Guido van Rossum : Maybe we should remove typing from the stdlib? https://github.com/python/typing/issues/495 I'm strongly in favor on such move. I'm torn. If not having typing installed means you can't use "Any" or "O

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 554 v3 (new interpreters module)

On 03Oct2017 0755, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 08:36:55 -0600 Eric Snow wrote: On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 22:15:01 -0400 Eric Snow wrote: I'm still not convinced that sharing synchronization primitives is important enough to be wor

Re: [Python-Dev] [Security-sig] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

On 29Aug2017 0801, Steve Dower wrote: On 29Aug2017 0614, Wes Turner wrote: Wouldn't it be great to have the resources to source audit all code? (And expect everyone to GPG sign all their commits someday.) If you care this much, then you will find the resources to audit all the code man

Re: [Python-Dev] [Security-sig] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

On 29Aug2017 0614, Wes Turner wrote: Wouldn't it be great to have the resources to source audit all code? (And expect everyone to GPG sign all their commits someday.) If you care this much, then you will find the resources to audit all the code manually after you've downloaded it and before yo

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

On 28Aug2017 1926, Chris Angelico wrote: On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Steve Dower wrote: Check your line lengths, I think they may be too long? (Or maybe my mail client is set too short?) Yeah, not sure what's happened here. Are PEPs supposed to be 80? Or 72? According to the

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

On 28Aug2017 1834, Gregory P. Smith wrote: My gut feeling says that there are N interpreters available on just about every bloated system image out there. Multiple pythons are often among them, other we do not control will also continue to exist. I expect a small initial payload can be created th

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

On 28Aug2017 1815, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Very nicely written. A few comments below. On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 04:55:19PM -0700, Steve Dower wrote: [...] This PEP describes additions to the Python API and specific behaviors for the CPython implementation that make actions taken by the P

[Python-Dev] PEP 551: Security transparency in the Python runtime

will update at some point, but is a little behind the version in the repo.) Cheers, Steve - PEP: 551 Title: Security transparency in the Python runtime Version: $Revision$ Last-Modified: $Date$ Author: Steve Dower Dis

[Python-Dev] Python's Windows code-signing certificate

Just a heads-up, primarily for Marc-Andre, but letting everyone know for awareness. Next time we need to renew the PSF code signing certificate used for Windows releases, we will need to use a different CA. Our current certificate is from StartCom, who are losing their status as a trusted CA

Re: [Python-Dev] Interrupt thread.join() with Ctrl-C / KeyboardInterrupt on Windows

On 08Aug2017 1512, Nathaniel Smith wrote: On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote: On 08Aug2017 1151, Nathaniel Smith wrote: It looks like Thread.join ultimately ends up blocking in Python/thread_nt.h:EnterNonRecursiveMutex, which has a maze of #ifdefs behind it -- I think there

Re: [Python-Dev] Interrupt thread.join() with Ctrl-C / KeyboardInterrupt on Windows

On 08Aug2017 1151, Nathaniel Smith wrote: It looks like Thread.join ultimately ends up blocking in Python/thread_nt.h:EnterNonRecursiveMutex, which has a maze of #ifdefs behind it -- I think there are 3 different implementation you might end up with, depending on how CPython was built? Two of the

[Python-Dev] [ANN] Daily Windows builds of Python 3.x

Hi all As part of a deal with Zach Ware at PyCon, I agreed that if he removed the Subversion dependency from our builds, I would set up daily Windows builds of Python. Zach did an excellent job, and so I am now following through on my half of the deal :) For a while I've been uploading the o

Re: [Python-Dev] PyThreadState_GET() returns NULL from within PyImport_GetModuleDict()

On 07Aug2017 2231, Patrick Rutkowski wrote: So, it seems to be the case that picking a mismatched python binary causes the crash, __but only with python3, not with python36__. This makes me wonder what the differences is between the two in the first place. I was getting the crash to begin with be

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

for NTFS to amortize calls better. Perhaps not, but it is still the most expensive part of startup that we have any ability to change, so it’s worth investigating. Cheers, Steve Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Brett Cannon Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 10:18 To: Steve Dower; Alex Walters

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

I believe the trend is due to language like Python and Node.js, most of which aggressively discourage threading (more from the broader community than the core languages, but I see a lot of apps using these now), and also the higher reliability afforded by out-of-process tasks (that is, one crash

Re: [Python-Dev] Buildbot report (almost July)

On 29Jun2017 1157, Terry Reedy wrote: On 6/29/2017 1:54 PM, Steve Dower wrote: Some warnings are also complicated because of the nature of CPython. For example, the socket module exposes deprecated CRT functions (on Windows) directly because the API of the socket module promises to provide

Re: [Python-Dev] Buildbot report (almost July)

On 29Jun2017 1013, Terry Reedy wrote: Great work. Agreed. Thanks, Victor! How about compiler warnings (and errors)? When I compile on Windows, there are a boatload of orange-yellow warnings. Some are about using a deprecated featured; some about dodgy casts; some (I presume) about other t

[Python-Dev] Proposal for C++ metaclasses

Thought this might be interesting for those of us who live deeper in the language than most – this is the formal proposal to add metaclasses to C++. http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/p0707r0.pdf Given the differences between Python and C++, it’s obviously got a different a

Re: [Python-Dev] New workflow change: Welcome to blurb

One quick heads up – the NEWS file is included in the docs build (if not in the html docs, certainly in the CHM for Windows releases). You may have to do some extra work to keep that from breaking when you remove it. We might also include it as plain text in the installers, I forget right now.

Re: [Python-Dev] Appveyor builds fail on Windows for 3.6 backports.

We could improve life for everyone even more if we built Tcl/Tk once per update and made it a binary dependency. Nobody is updating our version of it regularly anyway, and this would significantly improve build time in CI. The externals script probably just needs some retry logic. Doesn’t look l

Re: [Python-Dev] test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows

On 21Jun2017 0736, Victor Stinner wrote: Thank you Steve for looking at this issue and to work on our Windows installer :-) No worries. So we didn't ship 3.6.2rc1 with LF line endings instead of CRLF - those are fine. These issues are due to .gitattributes changing for test data files, but t

Re: [Python-Dev] test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows

I’ll clean it up and try again to see if it repros or was a random occurrence. Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Victor Stinner Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:23 To: Steve Dower Cc: Python Dev Subject: Re: test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows 2017-06-21 16:10 GMT+02

Re: [Python-Dev] test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows

: Victor Stinner Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:27 To: Python Dev; Steve Dower Subject: test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows Hi, The end-of-line hell is not over, test_sax and test_random tests are still failing if you install Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows: http

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