Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-11 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Nick Coghlan writes: As you point out, most language development teams do very little to try to educate their users about security issues. That's partly because it isn't going to be terribly effective. Security is a difficult subject, not one that's going to be usefully treated in a couple

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Alex Gaynor
Hi python-dev and Raymond, I think this change is a considerable usability regression for the documentation. Right now the warnings about CSPRNGs are hidden in the introductory paragraph, which users are likely to skip. I agree that there's no need to repeat the same advice twice, but I'd much

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
On May 10, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Alex Gaynor alex.gay...@gmail.com wrote: I think this change is a considerable usability regression for the documentation. Right now the warnings about CSPRNGs are hidden in the introductory paragraph, which users are likely to skip In the past couple of

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sat, 10 May 2014 14:35:38 -0700 Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: In the past couple of years, we've grown an unfortunate tendency to fill the docs with big warning boxes (the subprocess docs are an example of implicitly communicating that the module is dangerous and

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 11 May 2014 07:37, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 10, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Alex Gaynor alex.gay...@gmail.com wrote: I think this change is a considerable usability regression for the documentation. Right now the warnings about CSPRNGs are hidden in the

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Donald Stufft
On May 10, 2014, at 6:10 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On 11 May 2014 07:37, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 10, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Alex Gaynor alex.gay...@gmail.com wrote: I think this change is a considerable usability regression for the

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
On May 10, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: It's not about being bright or not, it's about being *willing* to eat walls of text. However pleasant it may be for some people to *write* documentation, for most readers (and especially non-native English readers, who

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Guido van Rossum
Give it up, Raymond. On Saturday, May 10, 2014, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 10, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.netjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','solip...@pitrou.net'); wrote: It's not about being bright or not, it's about being *willing* to

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Ezio Melotti
Hi, On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 12:35 AM, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 10, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Alex Gaynor alex.gay...@gmail.com wrote: I think this change is a considerable usability regression for the documentation. Right now the warnings about CSPRNGs are hidden

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 11 May 2014 08:24, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Before proceeding further with stamping distracting security warnings all over the module documentation, we should look to other languages to see what others have found necessary. This warning does not appear anywhere

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Stefan Behnel
Nick Coghlan, 11.05.2014 01:01: As you point out, most language development teams do very little to try to educate their users about security issues. The consequences of that are clearly visible in the world around us: when security is treated as an optional afterthought, you get widespread

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
On May 10, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Total +1 on keeping these little bits around. Since all of you want a warning, I'll add one back but with improved wording. I'm not all at comfortable with the wording of the second sentence. I was the author of the

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Remove the redundant and poorly worded warning message.

2014-05-10 Thread Tim Peters
[Raymond Hettinger] ... I'm not all at comfortable with the wording of the second sentence. I was the author of the SystemRandom() class and I only want to guarantee that it provides access to the operating system's source of random numbers. It is a bold claim to guarantee that it is