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--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pro
This was intentional in PEP 572 so it is not a grammar bug fix.
Put your money where your mouth is, or become another armchair language
designer. Your choice.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 23:58 Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 13:10:55 -0800
> Guido van Rossum wro
gt;
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Hi Paul,
I suggest that you just go straight to the PEP phase.
--Guido
On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:54 PM Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Everyone knows how hard to find a compelling usecase for the assignment
> expression operator (":=", colloquially "
The proposal is to add a default event loop that is always active.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 06:41 wrote:
> I mean to be able to do something like this:
> ```python
> import asyncio
>
> await asyncio.sleep(1);
> ```
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nk it's fine the way you have implemented it -- since there
is a difference between a[1] and a[1,], a[*t] where len(t) == 1 has to make
a choice, and it's fine if this always passes a tuple.
> > 2. Does PEP 637 allow a positional argument after a `*`?
> >- e.g., Generi
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On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 5:49 PM Inada Naoki wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 10:22 AM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Older Pythons may be easy to drop, but I'm not so sure about older
> unofficial docs. The open() function is very popular and there must
thon but good at SEO).
I would be very sad if the official recommendation had to become "[for the
most common case] avoid open(filename), use open_text(filename)".
BTW remind me what open_text() would do? How would it differ from open()
with the same arguments? That's too many messa
I have definitely seen BOMs written by Notepad on Windows 10.
Why can’t the future be that open() in text mode guesses the encoding?
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On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 5:01 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 09:02:10AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 8:11 AM Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>
> > To the contrary, vars() is something I added to the language for the
>
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:36 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:33 PM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:15 PM Christopher Barker
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Though frankly, I would rather have had it use .items() -- see
? Then you
> will probably prefer `obj.__dict__` over `vars(obj)` too :-)
>
Not a valid analogy.
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--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
nces to be differentiably using dunders only. But it's about 31
years too late for that. And looking at the mess JavaScript made of this
(sequences are mappings with string keys "0", "1" and so on), I'm pretty
happy with how Python did this.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.
dout/stdin.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
>
>> The asyncio module already has a subprocess support: Subprocesses —
>> Python 3.9.1 documentation
>> <https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio-subprocess.html>
>>
>> Was
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Dear Nikita,
I'm sorry to squash your idea, but I don't think your library is mature
enough to be considered for inclusion in the standard library.
May 2021 be an improvement upon 2020,
--Guido
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:04 AM Nikita Almakov
wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> Th
this need clearly a few times.) I
can't comment on the exact semantics or implementation (though I'd prefer
it if it didn't have to run a subprocess).
IDLE should probably monkey-patch this so it does something reasonable in
its shell window.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python
t following this either. Can you give an example of something that
doesn't work with Enum (and shouldn't work) but should work with
NamedValues?
Finally, why the plural in the name, where Enum and friends all have
singular names?
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pron
a
> way for ForwardRef to cache evaluated values when get_type_hints is
> called?
>
> 2. Something I haven't considered? Please let me know.
>
>
> Paul
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On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 1:22 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 10:57:32AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > All I have to add is that I am appalled that people actually write `from
> > foo import __init__`
>
> I too would be appalled if that was
s the value of Python in the larger ecosystem. My opinion is
> the harm inflicted by dropping support for "__init__" in module names will
> be more than compensated by long-term benefits of enabling turnkey Python
> application distribution. But that's my personal take and I ha
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hts? It is worth
> drafting a new PEP for this idea?
>
>
> Bests,
> Qingyao
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usable to solve a whole bunch of other problems, in addition to
giving us a cleaner way to solve the value capture problem.
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--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-chang
ll a very common
case). The rule would be something like "if there's no /, a / is assumed at
the end", and also "in positional args, the syntax is [name ':'] type_expr
['=' default_expr]."
Gotta go,
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:02 AM Andrew Svetlov
wrote:
yntax is particularly
> readable when lots of nesting is involved, but I suspect that's just
> because the type is just complicated. :) )
>
You could simplify it by judicious application of type aliases.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(wh
hat comprehensions implicitly use 'for let ...'. If
we were to drive this through quickly enough we could even make it apply to
pattern matching captures. (Or maybe pattern matching could get these
semantics anyway.)
My bus is here, so that's it,
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~
ality.
>
Hm, but using Protocol you can already express every callable type. We
could duplicate all of the complexity of 'def' parameter lists into the
type notation, but it would be very complex. So this requirement is at
least debatable (I'm not actually sure how I feel abou
, the better I think because it encourages python users to
> annotate their functions.
>
Indeed. Shantanu did some quick counting and found that after 'Any' and the
types covered by PEP 585, Callable is by far the most used:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42102#msg381155
--
--Guido van
> because the caller didn't bind it to keep hold of it.
>
Sounds like one of you is describing current semantics and the other is
explaining the proposed new semantics. :-)
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing
Council (not me).
(Why do I propose "let" and not "const"? It seems "let" has become the
industry standard language. The other day I saw a reference to a LET()
function in Excel. :-)
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)
yet sufficiently familiar with that
field to be able to point you to examples. Hopefully there are readers here
who can. (Nate?)
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-
works, and
that having to write 'for new x in ...' is no better, because you'd still
forget it.
Maybe we should consider introducing a new kind of function that captures
values instead? That would be a much more principled fix.
--Guido
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 4:20 PM Ben Rudiak-Gould
I recommend taking this to typing-sig...
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 19:18 David Foster wrote:
> On 11/22/20 10:15 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > - We intentionally don't support things like `isinstance(x, List[str])`
> > because that would require checking all the items w
On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 1:55 PM Samuel Colvin wrote:
> More generally, I think runtime type checking was never the intention for
> type hints, in fact I think Guido specifically said somewhere that runtime
> type checking was not an intended use case (am I right?). However
> pydant
at do support isinstance(), so you could
write e.g.
ICircle = make_interface(Circle)
IRect = make_interface(Rect)
# etc.
def draw_shape():
match request.json:
case ICircle(center, radius): ...
case IRect(x, y, width, height): ...
...
but this loses much of the original at
> I've completed my survey of how other languages use pattern matching to
> > match Mapping-like and dict-like types, especially focusing on whether
> > they ignore (𝔸) or disallow (𝔹) extra keys by default. [...]
>
> To close the loop on this thread:
>
> * Based
essage/WBTOEFRUWB2MQWZ7OTJB6ME2IMSZXTPM/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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David Foster wrote:
> On 11/14/20 10:17 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > It’s a usability issue; mappings are used quite differently than
> > sequences. Compare to class patterns rather than sequence patterns.
>
> I just found the following explanation from the superceded PEP
;
> def parse_todo_item(todo_item_json: Dict) -> TodoItem_ReadWrite:
> match todo_item_json:
> case {'title': str(title), 'completed': bool(completed),
> **extra}:
> return TodoItem_
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> Code of Conduct:
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 21:47 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 09:05:43PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > Hm, for PEP 622/634 we looked at this and ended up making it so that this
> > is the default -- you only have to write
> > ```
> > {&#
ly have to write
```
{'spam': spam, 'eggs': eggs} = mapping
```
and any extra keys are ignored. This is because for the common use case
here we want to ignore extra keys, not insist there aren't any. (We wrote
it up a little better in the Mapping Patterns section of PEP 635
rse(): assignment to fstrings
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>
's been worked on at the Core dev sprint that's currently winding down.
But the quoting won't change.
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
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sition or by name:
>
>
> height, width = get_dimensions(window) # returns a tuple
> height, width = **get_dimensions(window) # returns a mapping
>
> Developers can choose whichever model best suits their API.
>
> Another use-case is dealing wi
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 3:37 AM Hans Ginzel wrote:
> Thank you for (ugly) workaorund.
>
Careful who you're calling ugly.
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} {b} {c}": print("Triple", a, b, c)
```
Everything else (e.g. how to design the formatting language) would be open.
We could even designate "raw" f-strings (rf"...") as regular expressions
().
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my
uot;
> foo, bar, baz = scan_to_tuple(pat_only, haystack)
> # names, if bound, have the types indicated by scanning language
>
> There are questions open about partial matching, defaults, exceptions to
> raise, etc. But the general utility of something along those lines seems
> roughly
ying that it wouldn't be useful or practical. Not really sure
> how this works.
>
> ChrisA
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The ‘if __name__…’ idiom makes one function special. Hm... So if the module
has that, will that main() still be called with your proposal? I.e., is
__name__ still ‘__main__’?
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 20:32 Michael Smith wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 23:12 Guido van Rossum wrote
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Michael Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:19 PM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> >
> > I think it would be a tad more convincing if there was a way to pass
> arguments too (even if just a list of strings). At the very least extra
> ar
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and perhaps IDLE (or some enterprising
IDLE hacker) can monkey-patch that to do whatever makes IDLE's shell reset.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 4:52 PM Mike Miller
wrote:
>
> On 2020-10-13 15:35, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Can one of the educators on the list explain why this is such a co
g to do so, only that it surprised me when
> I first discovered it.
>
>
> --
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On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:41 AM Serhiy Storchaka
wrote:
> 07.10.20 06:04, Guido van Rossum пише:
> > Ironically, complex numbers have a `__float__`
> > method that always fails, and floats don't have a `__complex__` method
> > but complex(x) succeeds if x is a flo
exing and slicing) that would change from O(1) to
O(N) if the implementation changed to something other than an array.
I'm not arguing against this proposal, or for it. I'm just mentioning
> some considerations which should be considered :-)
>
Same here, for sure. Still wait
) would require some kind of buffering
to build them out of the basics.
I would expect that, given a sufficiently compelling real-world
> use-case, we would be prepared to add a jump ahead method to
> list-iterators, as a specific feature of that iterator, not of all
> iterators.
But
s a pain to combine
two different metaclasses.
> namespace Foo:
> x=1
> def bar():
> pass
> def baz()
> return bar() + x
>
That could be done with a function and a function decorator. "Proof left as
an exercise for the reader." :-)
--
--Guido v
ecedent -- though it's a questionable one (Luciano
discovered this). It shows how tricky these things are though.
There's a `typing.SupportsFoat` protocol that checks for the presence of a
`__float__` method, and a `typing.SupportsComplex` protocol that checks for
`__complex__`. Ironical
I’m still waiting for an example of a real app where this matters. --
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field stating that the
existing slots take a dict as argument.
I'm not sure that we need a vector style API here -- I have a feeling that
this isn't going to be performance critical. (Certainly not for most
people, and not for the PEP authors' use cases.)
If you really want
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this behaviour into `dataclass` (and
> possibly `total_ordering`), and let 3rd parties implement this logic
> themselves.
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 5:08 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> That might work (though not for older Python versions). What kind of API
>> were you think
>
> example: @abstractmethod(True) # Method won't be included in required
> implementations. Default: False (for bcompat reasons)
>
That's already possible: just don't use @abstractmethod at all. You can
still override!
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronoun
the dev team probably knows better. If this is an accepted solution, I'd be
> happy to write a BPO and PR.
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 5:30 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Would it help if ‘__abstractmethods__’ was documented, overruling
>> whatever the PEP says?
>&
here an objection for
>>>
>>> implementing such a thing, or was it complex enough to
>>>
>>> postpone for the time being?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
At this point I think we're all set for use cases, both for keyword-only
and for mixed use. Clearly a lot of libraries are going to be able to
provide better APIs using this PEP, and mixed use of positionals and
keywords will be quite useful to some of these.
--
--Guido van Rossum (pytho
, when occurring in
hard-coded arguments of either nature, may also be slices, e.g. `d[x]`
could be `d[i:j]` or `d[i:j:k]` or e.g. `d[::]`. This makes no difference
for the analysis. Note that in `*args` and `**kwargs` the slice notation is
not syntactically valid -- but you can use explicit calls to `slice(
pecifically about this issue, and then have people seemingly not even
> read it before writing back to disagree :-(
+1
—Guido
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obj[**d] = "foo" # no kwd arguments provided here
>
> ...which, if someone does this arbitrarily against classes that use the
> existing kind of code I gave at the first, will call (if the sentinel is ()
> ):
>
> obj.__setitem__((), "foo") # [Correction by Guid
and I'm not sure that I see the gain, yet.
> I'm obviously missing something.
>
Yes, reading through about 500 messages before the PEP was drafted. Nearly
every aspect of this has been debated to death.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him *
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 11:26 PM Ricky Teachey wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 1:51 AM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> But this requires introspection.
>>
>
> I'm sorry Guido I'm staring at your message and reread mine several times
> and I don't unde
em__(self, index, value, **kwargs):
> if index is SENTINEL:
> handle_kwd_args_only()
>
> ---
> Ricky.
>
> "I've never met a Kentucky man who wasn't either thinking about going home
> or actually going home." - Happy Chandler
>
>
ct of keywords. Looking
through the existing APIs, I recommend
PyObject_{Get,Set,Del}ItemWithKeywords instead. (Note you have a typo here,
"DetItem". Also I recommend adding markup (e.g. bullets) so each signature
is on a line by itself.
That's it from me!
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--Guido van Rossum (pyth
thon-ideas-le...@python.org
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to make this do something useful.
>
> Granted, there is no rule resembling this anywhere else in Python, but
> maybe an exception can be made here, to keep it consistent with the above?
>
What consistency? The consistent rule is that the gramma
using a search engine. (Most
queries lead to descriptions of regular expressions in Scala, or more
general discussion of pattern matching in Scala.) Maybe that's indicative
of some smell... But its existence suggests that this idea has actually
been implemented quite
create a bugs.python.org issue
> to track it. Either way, it's up to the core devs to decide, but it
> shouldn't need all the overhead of a full PEP.
>
It will still need a bpo issue, so might as well create one now.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him
Hi Ranga,
I think I understand what you're after, but this really looks like
something you can solve yourself in several ways (e.g. just creating
classes that override one method) so I don't think it's worth changing the
argparse module to support this directly.
--Guido
On Thu,
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 4:19 PM David Mertz wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 12:59 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> What happened to "not every three-line function needs to be a built-in"?
>> This is *literally* a three-line function. And I know the proposal is not
class from inside the
method (in case it's called for a subclass). So I also added classmethod.
But since staticmethod was already out of the bag, I kept it around, and
it's found its uses (as you can see from other replies).
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/h
s-le...@python.org
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--
--Guido van Ro
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:10 PM David Mertz wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with 1e1000?
>>
>
> As a spelling of "infinity" generically, or just as an example of an
> "arithmetic operation"?
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--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pro
Rangarajan,
You may be on to something but the description is a bit dense.
Can you show some examples of how this would work, and contrast those with
how the same thing would have to be done without your proposed feature?
—Guido
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 05:47 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Got the
The discussion on this list is plenty. Just write the PEP!
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 12:07 PM Cade Brown wrote:
> All,
>
> For reference, my PEP repo: https://github.com/CadeBrown/peps
>
>
> Guido,
>
> Thanks for helping out. And yes I'd be interested in writing a PEP.
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