Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-13 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jan 13, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Greg Ewing wrote: >Criticisms Frequently Levelled Against Python Missteps Or Nonfeatures Guido Obviously Ordered, Saddling Everyone (Yes, okay, I know python's aren't venomous, but never let facts get in the way of a good, bad, tortured, or mentally mushed Friday-ev

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-13 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 20:05 Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 13 January 2017 at 12:43, Stephen J. Turnbull > wrote: > > Mark E. Haase writes: > > > > > I don't think an informational PEP would make threads like Python > Review > > > shorter and/or more productive. The OP clearly didn't do much > rese

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 13 January 2017 at 12:43, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Mark E. Haase writes: > > > I don't think an informational PEP would make threads like Python Review > > shorter and/or more productive. The OP clearly didn't do much research, so > > it seems unlikely he would read an informational PEP.

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Mark E. Haase writes: > I don't think an informational PEP would make threads like Python Review > shorter and/or more productive. The OP clearly didn't do much research, so > it seems unlikely he would read an informational PEP. But just saying "do your research" (which is quite reasonable wi

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Chris Barker - NOAA Federal
> By saying that "these are things that will not change", I agree -- these are not exactly " things that will not change" as they are: "Things that have been discussed (often ad nausium) and considered and definitively rejected" And many of them are: "Part of what makes Python Python" I think

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
I've not followed this discussion closely, but I would assume that for most things on the "will never change" list the explanation is simply that the cost of changing it while maintaining backward compatibility is too high compared to the benefit of fixing the problem (regardless of whether it real

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Erik
On 12/01/17 19:51, Todd wrote: On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Sven R. Kunze mailto:srku...@mail.de>> wrote: First of all, I am anti-censor and pro-change. There is no "censorship" or "banning thoughts" going on here. Even with this PEP, people are free to think about and talk about how

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Greg Ewing
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Greg Ewing writes: > FCLAP - Frequent Criticisms Levelled Against Python It reads better if you don't insist that they be frequent. (This may only play in America.) Criticisms Frequently Levelled Against Python would be another possibility... -- Greg _

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Mikhail V
On 12 January 2017 at 20:09, Todd wrote: > > 4. I think either adding a bit more detail about the rationale for the > decisions, > Would be nice. But then someone must tinker with it. 7. I am not sure what "Python will not use ``$`` as syntax." means. Are > you referring to a particular commo

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Paul Moore
On 12 January 2017 at 19:33, Sven R. Kunze wrote: > This a very absolute-sounding title. Maybe inserting a "(most likely)" > between "that" and "won't" will give it the right nudge. Well, the whole point of the document is to stop people falsely hoping that they can "persuade" people to change th

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Todd
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Sven R. Kunze wrote: > Good evening to everybody, > > On 12.01.2017 03:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > >> I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will >> >> not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup >> >> page

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Pavol Lisy
On 1/12/17, Todd wrote: > 5. "and" and "or" are short-circuiting operations that return one of the > two values given. They will never be non-short-circuiting and they will > never coerce returned values to boolean. This one bring question how deep this PEP could be because we could show what

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Sven R. Kunze
Good evening to everybody, On 12.01.2017 03:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup page for the mailing list, and be the one obvious place to point newcomers to

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Todd
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will > > not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup > > page for the mailing list, and be the one obvious place to point > > newcomers to if t

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Alexandre Brault
Frequently Addressed Criticisms would solve both issues, imo Alex On 2017-01-12 12:18 PM, Chris Barker wrote: > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Greg Ewing > mailto:greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz>> wrote: > > Chris Barker wrote: > > Frequently Asked Criticisms > > > Doesn't quite ma

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Chris Barker
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Greg Ewing wrote: > Chris Barker wrote: > >> Frequently Asked Criticisms >> > > Doesn't quite make sense -- one doesn't "ask" criticisms. > I know, but I like that you can pronounce it the same a "FAQ" > FCLAP - Frequent Criticisms Levelled Against Python Su

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Mark E. Haase
I don't think an informational PEP would make threads like Python Review shorter and/or more productive. The OP clearly didn't do much research, so it seems unlikely he would read an informational PEP. Moreover, the bikeshedding about what goes into this PEP will inevitably lead to a troll who isn'

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Eric Fahlgren
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Chris Barker wrote: > Many of the things people (newbies, mostly) complain about are simply > taste, or legacy that isn't worth changing. > ​A lot of that sort of thing is idiomatic, so I point people here and say "just do it that way and you'll be happier in the

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Greg Ewing writes: > Chris Barker wrote: > > Frequently Asked Criticisms > > Doesn't quite make sense -- one doesn't "ask" criticisms. > > How about: > > FCLAP - Frequent Criticisms Levelled Against Python It reads better if you don't insist that they be frequent. (This may only play i

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Paul Moore
On 12 January 2017 at 04:39, Mikhail V wrote: > And my first though is about "will not change". Like: never ever change or > like: will not change in 10 years or 20 years. Like: "Please don't waste people's time trying to start a discussion about them". In 10 or 20 years, if opinions have changed

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-12 Thread Greg Ewing
Chris Barker wrote: Frequently Asked Criticisms Doesn't quite make sense -- one doesn't "ask" criticisms. How about: FCLAP - Frequent Criticisms Levelled Against Python -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.pyth

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Oleg Broytman
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:42:46AM -0600, Nick Timkovich wrote: > Why mention sys.ps1 == '>>> ', is that some inside joke I'm unaware of? > That is one of the easier things to modify (with a sitecustomize.py or > whatever). With PYTHONSTARTUP. > On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:03 AM, INADA Naoki

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Nick Timkovich
Why mention sys.ps1 == '>>> ', is that some inside joke I'm unaware of? That is one of the easier things to modify (with a sitecustomize.py or whatever). On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:03 AM, INADA Naoki wrote: > > Built-in functions > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Python is an object-ori

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread INADA Naoki
> Built-in functions > > -- > > > > Python is an object-oriented language, but it is not *purely* > > object-oriented. Not everything needs to be `a method of some object > `_, > > and functions have th

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Pavol Lisy
On 1/12/17, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > This shouldn't need saying, but Python 3 will not be abandoned. Except Python 4 would come. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduc

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Mikhail V
On 12 January 2017 at 03:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will > not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup > page for the mailing list, and be the one obvious place to point > newcomers to if they propos

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Chris Barker
I think this is a fine idea, but I also think we could use a more verbose FAC: Frequently Asked Criticisms Some of the same things, but it would focus on the "why" of many of the issues. Many of the things people (newbies, mostly) complain about are simply taste, or legacy that isn't worth chang

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Oleg Broytman
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 01:37:41PM +1100, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Explicit self > - > > Explicit ``self`` is a feature, not a bug. See the > `FAQ > `_ > for more detail.

Re: [Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Chris Angelico
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will > not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup > page for the mailing list, and be the one obvious place to point > newcomers to if they pro

[Python-ideas] Things that won't change (proposed PEP)

2017-01-11 Thread Steven D'Aprano
I have a proposal for an Informational PEP that lists things which will not change in Python. If accepted, it could be linked to from the signup page for the mailing list, and be the one obvious place to point newcomers to if they propose the same old cliches. Thoughts? * * * * *