, when occurring in
hard-coded arguments of either nature, may also be slices, e.g. `d[x]`
could be `d[i:j]` or `d[i:j:k]` or e.g. `d[::]`. This makes no difference
for the analysis. Note that in `*args` and `**kwargs` the slice notation is
not syntactically valid -- but you can use explicit calls to `slice(
At this point I think we're all set for use cases, both for keyword-only
and for mixed use. Clearly a lot of libraries are going to be able to
provide better APIs using this PEP, and mixed use of positionals and
keywords will be quite useful to some of these.
--
--Guido van Rossum (pytho
Would it help if ‘__abstractmethods__’ was documented, overruling whatever
the PEP says?
On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 00:01 Ben Avrahami wrote:
> I encountered this problem when I needed to implement a class that defined
> all 4 of the comparison operators, once with `dataclass` (for one
> implementa
the dev team probably knows better. If this is an accepted solution, I'd be
> happy to write a BPO and PR.
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 5:30 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Would it help if ‘__abstractmethods__’ was documented, overruling
>> whatever the PEP says?
>&
>
> example: @abstractmethod(True) # Method won't be included in required
> implementations. Default: False (for bcompat reasons)
>
That's already possible: just don't use @abstractmethod at all. You can
still override!
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*Pronoun
this behaviour into `dataclass` (and
> possibly `total_ordering`), and let 3rd parties implement this logic
> themselves.
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 5:08 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> That might work (though not for older Python versions). What kind of API
>> were you think
I think the OP would be happy with a decorator they can just copy-paste.
All it needs to do is go over the class dict and apply @classmethod to
every “normal” function. Probably skip under names.
On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 06:46 Ricky Teachey wrote:
> cf. this relatively recent conversation on the s
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field stating that the
existing slots take a dict as argument.
I'm not sure that we need a vector style API here -- I have a feeling that
this isn't going to be performance critical. (Certainly not for most
people, and not for the PEP authors' use cases.)
If you really want
I’m still waiting for an example of a real app where this matters. --
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ecedent -- though it's a questionable one (Luciano
discovered this). It shows how tricky these things are though.
There's a `typing.SupportsFoat` protocol that checks for the presence of a
`__float__` method, and a `typing.SupportsComplex` protocol that checks for
`__complex__`. Ironical
s a pain to combine
two different metaclasses.
> namespace Foo:
> x=1
> def bar():
> pass
> def baz()
> return bar() + x
>
That could be done with a function and a function decorator. "Proof left as
an exercise for the reader." :-)
--
--Guido v
On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 18:16 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> For `__advance__` to be an official Python protocol, it would almost
> certainly have to be of use for *general purpose iterators*, not just
> specialised ones -- and probably not *hypothetical* iterators which may
> not even exist. Do you hav
exing and slicing) that would change from O(1) to
O(N) if the implementation changed to something other than an array.
I'm not arguing against this proposal, or for it. I'm just mentioning
> some considerations which should be considered :-)
>
Same here, for sure. Still wait
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:41 AM Serhiy Storchaka
wrote:
> 07.10.20 06:04, Guido van Rossum пише:
> > Ironically, complex numbers have a `__float__`
> > method that always fails, and floats don't have a `__complex__` method
> > but complex(x) succeeds if x is a flo
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g to do so, only that it surprised me when
> I first discovered it.
>
>
> --
> Steve
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and perhaps IDLE (or some enterprising
IDLE hacker) can monkey-patch that to do whatever makes IDLE's shell reset.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 4:52 PM Mike Miller
wrote:
>
> On 2020-10-13 15:35, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Can one of the educators on the list explain why this is such a co
g
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On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Michael Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:19 PM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> >
> > I think it would be a tad more convincing if there was a way to pass
> arguments too (even if just a list of strings). At the very least extra
> ar
The ‘if __name__…’ idiom makes one function special. Hm... So if the module
has that, will that main() still be called with your proposal? I.e., is
__name__ still ‘__main__’?
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 20:32 Michael Smith wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 23:12 Guido van Rossum wrote
ying that it wouldn't be useful or practical. Not really sure
> how this works.
>
> ChrisA
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uot;
> foo, bar, baz = scan_to_tuple(pat_only, haystack)
> # names, if bound, have the types indicated by scanning language
>
> There are questions open about partial matching, defaults, exceptions to
> raise, etc. But the general utility of something along those lines seems
> roughly
} {b} {c}": print("Triple", a, b, c)
```
Everything else (e.g. how to design the formatting language) would be open.
We could even designate "raw" f-strings (rf"...") as regular expressions
().
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On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 3:37 AM Hans Ginzel wrote:
> Thank you for (ugly) workaorund.
>
Careful who you're calling ugly.
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sition or by name:
>
>
> height, width = get_dimensions(window) # returns a tuple
> height, width = **get_dimensions(window) # returns a mapping
>
> Developers can choose whichever model best suits their API.
>
> Another use-case is dealing wi
's been worked on at the Core dev sprint that's currently winding down.
But the quoting won't change.
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>
rse(): assignment to fstrings
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ly have to write
```
{'spam': spam, 'eggs': eggs} = mapping
```
and any extra keys are ignored. This is because for the common use case
here we want to ignore extra keys, not insist there aren't any. (We wrote
it up a little better in the Mapping Patterns section of PEP 635
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 21:47 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 09:05:43PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > Hm, for PEP 622/634 we looked at this and ended up making it so that this
> > is the default -- you only have to write
> > ```
> > {&#
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It’s a usability issue; mappings are used quite differently than sequences.
Compare to class patterns rather than sequence patterns.
On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 22:04 David Foster wrote:
> From PEP 636 (Structural Pattern Matching):
> > Mapping patterns: {"bandwidth": b, "latency": l} captures the
David Foster wrote:
> On 11/14/20 10:17 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > It’s a usability issue; mappings are used quite differently than
> > sequences. Compare to class patterns rather than sequence patterns.
>
> I just found the following explanation from the superceded PEP
Go for it. This is a pretty minor issue but we want to get it right. Data
is helpful.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 06:58 David Foster wrote:
> On 11/15/20 12:11 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > It would be good if the PEP gave a survey of the practical experience of
> > other languages with pattern mat
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;]
>
> For arbitrary JSON beyond the example, we'd also want to support
> isinstance() for:
> * List[T]
>
> We already support isinstance() for the other JSON primitive types:
> * str
> * float
> * bool
> * type(None)
>
> So what do folks thi
, please start a new thread on
typing-sig and we'll discuss it.
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_
I recommend taking this to typing-sig...
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 19:18 David Foster wrote:
> On 11/22/20 10:15 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > - We intentionally don't support things like `isinstance(x, List[str])`
> > because that would require checking all the items w
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>
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yet sufficiently familiar with that
field to be able to point you to examples. Hopefully there are readers here
who can. (Nate?)
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Council (not me).
(Why do I propose "let" and not "const"? It seems "let" has become the
industry standard language. The other day I saw a reference to a LET()
function in Excel. :-)
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)
> because the caller didn't bind it to keep hold of it.
>
Sounds like one of you is describing current semantics and the other is
explaining the proposed new semantics. :-)
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<http://feministing
, the better I think because it encourages python users to
> annotate their functions.
>
Indeed. Shantanu did some quick counting and found that after 'Any' and the
types covered by PEP 585, Callable is by far the most used:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42102#msg381155
--
--Guido van
ality.
>
Hm, but using Protocol you can already express every callable type. We
could duplicate all of the complexity of 'def' parameter lists into the
type notation, but it would be very complex. So this requirement is at
least debatable (I'm not actually sure how I feel abou
hat comprehensions implicitly use 'for let ...'. If
we were to drive this through quickly enough we could even make it apply to
pattern matching captures. (Or maybe pattern matching could get these
semantics anyway.)
My bus is here, so that's it,
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~
yntax is particularly
> readable when lots of nesting is involved, but I suspect that's just
> because the type is just complicated. :) )
>
You could simplify it by judicious application of type aliases.
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*Pronouns: he/him **(wh
ll a very common
case). The rule would be something like "if there's no /, a / is assumed at
the end", and also "in positional args, the syntax is [name ':'] type_expr
['=' default_expr]."
Gotta go,
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:02 AM Andrew Svetlov
wrote:
usable to solve a whole bunch of other problems, in addition to
giving us a cleaner way to solve the value capture problem.
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Inada Naoki
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Maybe you could start by writing this as a separate decorator, to be
applied on top of the data class decorator?
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 05:38 sam bland wrote:
> In response to the additional work required to convert the new python
> dataclass using the json encoder I propose an __encode__ method
s the value of Python in the larger ecosystem. My opinion is
> the harm inflicted by dropping support for "__init__" in module names will
> be more than compensated by long-term benefits of enabling turnkey Python
> application distribution. But that's my personal take and I ha
On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 1:22 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 10:57:32AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > All I have to add is that I am appalled that people actually write `from
> > foo import __init__`
>
> I too would be appalled if that was
a
> way for ForwardRef to cache evaluated values when get_type_hints is
> called?
>
> 2. Something I haven't considered? Please let me know.
>
>
> Paul
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t following this either. Can you give an example of something that
doesn't work with Enum (and shouldn't work) but should work with
NamedValues?
Finally, why the plural in the name, where Enum and friends all have
singular names?
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*Pron
'{' is currently invalid, it's not.
However it's a huge change conceptually and implementation-wise, and I
don't blame Eric if he doesn't want to be responsible for it. So it
has to be a new PEP, to be introduced in 3.7
mind, so you might as well stop debating and save all
the onlookers the embarrassment.)
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as Guido did: It would be really nice if you
> could pinpoint the phrases and reasons that make it seem that I mean it that
> way. (In a private mail to me)
>
> Best, Philipp
>
>
> Guido van Rossum schrieb am Di., 30. Aug. 2016, 18:43:
>>
>> Philipp, you need to stop
expect that syntax will
> confuse an awful lot of people.
Can we please stop debating this? This observation has been made about
100 times by now.
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ke.
> This is really only an issue with output.
So maybe the proposal should be toned down to just a way to request SI
units when formatting numbers?
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idea comes up.
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ll the drama we're just talking about adding an
'h' format code that's like 'g' but uses SI scale factors instead of
exponents. I guess we need to debate what it should do if the value is
way out of range of the SI scale system -- what's it going to do when
I pass
tails like "(..)" or "[...]".
But then you could only use this new idea for chaining method calls,
and not for spreading other large expressions across multiple lines.
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human-readable" output.
That would seem to apply to "space used" but not to "space available".
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On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
> Guido van Rossum writes:
>
> > But that's not what type comments mean! They don't annotate the
> > expression. They annotate the variable.
>
> In PEP 484. But syntactically, AFAICS in an initializat
ut the ideas in it seem pretty
uncontroversial, and in line with the existing expectations for
async/await.
Yury, if you manage to get a working implementation signed off by one
other core dev (not me) I can accept the PEP provisionally, under the
same c
rather than a prefix on 'for'.
Hopefully they've seen an 'async for' statement before they encounter
an async comprehension.
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xpath.realpath-e
> posixpath.realpath_require_prefix -f
> posixpath.realpath_allow_missing -m
> posixpath.realpath_gnuext GNU extension
>
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>
> What do you think? Sorry if this has been discussed before!
>
> Cheers,
> Damien.
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ty to change the optimization level
> mid-execution would break assumptions or flat-out ban cross-module
> optimizations in fear that too much code would break.
>
> So I'm not flat-out saying no to this idea, but there are some things to
> consider first.
>
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On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:09 AM, MRAB wrote:
> On 2016-09-10 18:44, Paul Moore wrote:
>>
>> On 10 September 2016 at 18:26, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>>
>>> IMO the key syntax is
>>> simply one for accessing attributes returning None instead of raising
orners where we would want
> behavior wrapped, but those shouldn't be that hard to add in principle.
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:21 PM, David Mertz wrote:
>>
>> I find the '?.' syntax very ugly, much more so in the examples of chained
>> attributes.
>>
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> So you're offering `NoneCoalesce(x).bar` as less-ugly alternative to
>> `x?.bar`... Color me unconvinced.
>
> As a syntactic form? Not interested. But w
I sent this accidentally as private reply, then tried to fix it on
> phone. The latter produced horrible formatting. Please just read this
> version.
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>> So you're offering `NoneCoalesce(x).bar` as les
No. PEP 505 actually solves the problem without ever catching
AttributeError. Please read it.
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:15 PM, David Mertz wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2016 4:45 PM, "Guido van Rossum" wrote:
>>
>> There seems to be a major misunderstanding here. A None-coalesci
t; motivation for new syntax.
>
>
> On Sep 10, 2016 6:29 PM, "MRAB" wrote:
>>
>> On 2016-09-11 02:02, David Mertz wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Guido van Rossum >> <mailto:gu...@python.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
Interestingly, after analyzing the above example I desperately want to
write it as
return "Illegal Argument" + (self.message && (": " + self.message) || "")
Note that I already know the relative priorities of && and ||, so I
can drop a set of parentheses.
a` is in
fact something more complex, like `f(a)`, repeating it twice sounds
like a performance penalty, and that's where `f(a)?.foo` really
shines.
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On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Rob Cliffe wrote:
>
>
> On 12/09/2016 16:37, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>> For the record, I still really don't like PEP 463. We should strive to
>> catch fewer exceptions, not make it easier to catch them.
>
> Can you ple
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ion that the affected class is
>> extensible (i.e. the use of the custom metaclass, or inheritance from
>> a base class that uses it) and hence that the given definition may be
>> incomplete
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nick.
>>
>> --
>> Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
>>
, since they're most often going to be
> representing constant integers, per Guido's post. I don't know of
> _any_ real-world cases where they're not integers, though there are
> some examples in the docs.
Amen.
> ChrisA
>
> [1] https://docs.python.org/3/libr
Please update the docs.
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>> Sometimes they function as integer constants (esp IntEnum), and
>>> sometimes more as just arbitrary values. See the examples in
I am radically opposed to this proposal. Every time I see a partial
application I wonder endlessly about what's going on.
--Guido (mobile)
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Code of
hat partial was faster. This
surprised me but it wa what I measured (in one particular case).
> Elazar
>
> בתאריך יום ג׳, 20 בספט' 2016, 18:20, מאת Guido van Rossum <
> gvanros...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I am radically opposed to this proposal. Every time I see a partial
>
Python 4 first).
I'm still trying to figure out my position on the other points of
discussion here -- keep discussing!
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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ou buy into the async way of living and it's coroutines all
the way down from there, no looking back -- or you stay on the safe
side of the fence, and you interact with coroutines only using a very
limited "remote manipulator" API. The two
even raise an exception at that
point.
Maybe a simpler approach would be to write a linter that checks for a
known list of common blocking functions, and anything that calls those
automatically gets the same property?
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
__
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Yury Selivanov wrote:
> On 2016-10-07 11:16 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Maybe a simpler approach would be to write a linter that checks for a
>> known list of common blocking functions, and anything that calls those
>> automaticall
Makes sense, maybe you can send a PR to the Python/peps repo?
--Guido (mobile)
On Oct 8, 2016 12:27 PM, "Jelte Fennema" wrote:
> I have an idea to improve indenting guidelines for dictionaries for better
> readability: If a value in a dictionary literal is placed on a new line, it
> should have
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