Re: c interfacing in 2.5

2007-09-15 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Diez B. Roggisch wrote: ctypes is for C. Where it is great to use. if you need simple wrappers then swig and ctypes are both good since they can generate it for you pyrex is also good for wrapping and for writing c extension code If you need C++-wrapping, I recommend SIP. i recommend py++

Re: Bragging about Python

2007-06-08 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Steve Howell wrote: --- Georg Brandl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 15 small programs here: http://wiki.python.org/moin/SimplePrograms IMHO a few python goodies are missing there. It's a Wiki. ;) Yes indeed. Please feel free to add to the page, or make your own fork.

Re: compiling python and calling it from C/C++

2007-06-08 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Russ wrote: Is it possible to compile python code into a library (on unix), then link to it and call it from C/C++? If so, where can I learn how. Thanks. not really but you may want to look into these: http://codespeak.net/pypy http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/Pyrex/

Re: url to image

2007-06-07 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: just wondering are there any snippets out there where you can convert a url to an image using python you mean render a webpage as an image? does not sound a simple task maybe you can use oss web rendering engines like gecco, khtml or webcore --

Re: Bragging about Python

2007-06-07 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Cameron Laird wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mathias Panzenboeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: def fib(): generation, parent_rabbits, baby_rabbits = 1, 1, 1 while True: yield generation, baby_rabbits generation += 1 parent_rabbits,

Re: Graph plotting module

2007-06-04 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Viewer T. wrote: Is there a python module anywhere out there that can plot straight line graphs, curves (quadratic, etc). If anyone knows where I can download one, please let me know. http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: writing to a file

2007-05-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as i understand there are two ways to write data to a file: using f.write(foo) and print f, foo. well print will add a '\n' or ' ' if you use ',' after it what i want to know is which one is faster (if there is any difference there shouldn't be any noticable

Re: Is PEP-8 a Code or More of a Guideline?

2007-05-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
John DeRosa wrote: +1 QOTW Hey, did you hear about the object-oriented version of COBOL? They call it ADD ONE TO COBOL. actually it is ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL#Aphorisms_and_humor_about_COBOL -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Is PEP-8 a Code or More of a Guideline?

2007-05-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Joe Riopel wrote: Using camel case instead of the under_score means less typing. I am lazy. fooBar foo_bar camel case makes source code extremely ugly in weird disturbing way YMMV -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: need advice on building core code for python and PHP

2007-05-24 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Is there a way I could code the base (core) code in Python and have PHP call it? I've really liked using SQLAlchemy and there are other * quick and dirty solution: in a shell: $ python yourscript.py pipe_in pipe_out in the php script: fwrite(pipe_in, input_data); results =

Re: python/C++ wrapper

2007-03-14 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
- A c++ program receives a 2D-matrix from python as input and gives a 2D-matrix as output back to python. pyogre uses swig ogre is a 3d realtime rendering engine written in c++ so there are many matrix manipulation there and also pyogre does not modify the original code cgkit is a computer

Re: python/C++ wrapper

2007-03-14 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Well, pyogre has few problems with maintenance, and new bindings to Ogre engine was created using Boost.Python( http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/PyOgre ) oh last time i played with pyogre they made a transition from boost to swig :) so they are back again at boost (the problem with boost

Re: Request for a change in the csv module.

2007-03-13 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
It would be much better to be able to specify an additional variabel to the Dialect class and change csv. no it wouldn't this is a locale specific problem so it should be handled there -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: What is the best queue implemetation in Python?

2007-02-23 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
For that purpose I have used the good deque that you can find in collections in the standard library. It's very good for queues, and it's a bit faster than regular lists for stacks too. you mean *much* faster (since a list is a reference array so pop(0) is O(n) operation) never use a list as

Re: Regex Speed

2007-02-22 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Well, just as an idea, there is a portable C library for this at http://laurikari.net/tre/ released under LGPL. If one is willing to give up PCRE extensions for speed, it might be worth the work to wrap this library using SWIG. actually there is a python binding in the tre source with an

Re: f---ing typechecking

2007-02-14 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Sergey Dorofeev wrote: Python 2.5 (r25:51908, Sep 19 2006, 09:52:17) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. (1,)+[1] Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in module TypeError: can only concatenate tuple (not

Re: Recursive calls and stack

2007-02-14 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a program which literately finds the object that overlapping a point. The horizontal and vertical search are called recursively from inside each other. ... in case you ever need deeply nested recursion: one solution is to use the already mentioned

Re: favourite editor

2007-02-11 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
azrael wrote: Since i'm new on this forum, and first time meeting a python comunity, i wanted to ask you for your python editors. Im looking for some good python editor, with integrated run function, without having to set it up manualy like komodo. I found the pyscripter, and it has all i

Re: python linux distro

2007-02-10 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
^was(is)^may one day be, but probably not,^ From the quoted page: The project is in an early development phase and as of January 2007, no significant progress was being made due to lack of developer time.[5] well actually i managed to boot unununium in qemu so it _is_ an os but obviously

Re: Best Free and Open Source Python IDE

2007-02-09 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Srikanth wrote: Yes, All I need is a good IDE, I can't find something like Eclipse (JDT). Eclipse has a Python IDE plug-in but it's not that great. Please recommend. Thanks, Srikanth try pida http://pida.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python linux distro

2007-02-09 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Now what would be interesting (and *really* crazy) would be Linux (or BSD or whatever) distro written almost entirely *in* Python, with the goal of eliminating as much bash/sh as possible. That would be fun. actually there was(is) an os whitch is written almost entirely *in* Python:

Re: mplayer bug or python bug?

2007-02-07 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Marco wrote: The following code is my test program for control mplayer. in movies/ there are about 20 movies, the code plays them in circle, but mplayer will crash silently after a circle, the sliently means I can handle popen2 without except, but no movie. i had some problem with mplayer

Re: C parsing fun

2007-02-05 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
based on concepts my boss had. To do this I needed to represent C++ code structure in Python somehow. I read the docs for Yapps, pyparsing and other stuff like those, then I came up with a very simple idea. I realized that bracketed code is almost like a Python list, except I have to replace

Re: Python does not play well with others

2007-02-03 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Paul Rubin wrote: George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What does batteries included mean to you? To me, it means you don't have to install add-ons. So let's make a 500MB executable and add Numpy, Zope, Django, PIL, pretty much everything actually. Even better, make CheeseShop

Re: Python **kwargs ?

2007-01-31 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
johnny wrote: What is **kwargs mean in python? When you put double **, does it mean passing by reference? here's a little example: def f(a, *args, **kw): ... print 'a:',a ... print 'args:',args ... print 'kw:',kw ... f(1,2,3,x=4) a: 1 args: (2, 3) kw: {'x': 4} f(a=1,b=2,c=3)

Re: Is any python like linux shell?

2007-01-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Brian Visel wrote: ipython is probably what you're looking for. or http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyshell -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: How can I know both the Key c and Ctrl on the keyboard are pressed?

2007-01-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi; How can I know the Key c and Ctrl on the keyboard are pressed? Or how to let the program press the key Ctrl+c automatically? I just want to use python to develop a script program. gear depends on where you got your input from and what do you exactly want eg:

Re: data design

2007-01-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
The lazy way to do this: have modules that initialize bunches of objects, attributes holding the data: the object is somehow the row of the table, attribute names being the column. This is the way I proceeded up to now. Data input this way are almost configuration data, with 2 big drawbacks:

Re: data design

2007-01-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Hurray for yaml! A perfect fit for my need! And a swell tool! Thanks a lot! i warn you against yaml it looks nice, but the underlying format is imho too complex (just look at their spec.) you said you don't want python source because that's too complex for the users. i must say that yaml is

Re: Random passwords generation (Python vs Perl) =)

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
If you don't mind possibly getting a few nonalphanumeric characters: import os,binascii print binascii.b2a_base64(os.urandom(6)) what about file('/dev/urandom').read(6).encode('base64') (oneliner and without import sa op requested) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Random passwords generation (Python vs Perl) =)

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
If you don't mind possibly getting a few nonalphanumeric characters: import os,binascii print binascii.b2a_base64(os.urandom(6)) what about file('/dev/urandom').read(6).encode('base64') (oneliner and without import as op requested) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Random passwords generation (Python vs Perl) =)

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Is os.urandom cryptographically strong on all platforms? http://docs.python.org/lib/os-miscfunc.html The returned data should be unpredictable enough for cryptographic applications, though its exact quality depends on the OS implementation. --

Re: Random passwords generation (Python vs Perl) =)

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
If you really want a hack, here it is: while 1:print ''.join(__import__('random').choice(__import__('string').letters+'1234567890') for x in xrange(8)),;n=raw_input() This is a one-liner (though mail transmission may split it up), no import statements. If someone can come up with an even

Re: Random passwords generation (Python vs Perl) =)

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
while 1:i=__import__;print''.join(i('random').choice(i('string').letters +'1234567890')for x in range(8)),;raw_input() while 1:i=__import__;r='random';print''.join(i(r).choice(i('string').letters +'1234567890')for x in`r`),;raw_input() even shorter: range - `'random'` :) --

Re: [Boost.Graph] graph.vertices property creates new objects

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
It seems that the vertices iterator creates new vertex objects every time instead of iterating over the existing ones. This essentially i don't know much about bgl, but this is possible since vertices are most likely not stored as python objects inside boost prevents, among other things,

Re: python 2.3 module ref

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
any pointers to a 2.3 module ref? also look at: http://rgruet.free.fr/PQR2.3.html#OtherModules when coding for different python versions i can reccommend this quick ref: http://rgruet.free.fr/ (every language feature is colorcoded according to the version when it was included) --

Re: deepcopy alternative?

2007-01-29 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
I believe the only thing stopping me from doing a deepcopy is the function references, but I'm not sure. If so is there any way to transform a string into a function reference(w/o eval or exec)? what's your python version? for me deepcopy(lambda:1) does not work in py2.4 but it works in py2.5

Re: Graph Data Structures

2006-11-25 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
i haven't read your code, but there are many graph implementations in python. in case you haven't found these yet: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonGraphApi if you only want to do some analysis i think you need this one (as it's pretty complete and simple): https://networkx.lanl.gov/ i also

gopherlib deprecated in 2.5

2006-11-22 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
I've just seen that gopherlib is deprecated in python 2.5 http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gopherlib.html we still use this protocol (though there are only few working gopher servers are left on the net) My friend just wrote a standard compliant gopher server (pygopherd had some problems oslt)

Re: Guide to using python for bash-style scripting

2006-05-23 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
python subprocess module docs: http://docs.python.org/dev/lib/node517.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Best IDE for Python?

2006-04-03 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
ide unification effort: http://pyxides.stani.be/ (there are some useful links and it's more recent than the python.org wiki) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: editor for Python on Linux

2006-02-21 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
pida is a great ide as well: http://pida.vm.bytemark.co.uk/projects/pida -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: How to run shell commands within python

2006-02-16 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
use subprocess module from subprocess import call call(['cmd', 'arg1', 'arg2'], stdin='...', stdout='...') eg: call(['ls', '-l']) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: ANN: FreeImagePy 1.2.2

2006-02-16 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
eg.: .dds (compressed texture file format) widely used in 3d games but not accessible in pil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Encoding

2006-02-13 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
what about params='some data'.decode('utf8').encode('1250') ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Location of Python modules

2006-02-13 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Location of Python modules

2006-02-13 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
LOL a .py program is a module, you can import it: if it is in the sys.path (import modulename). if it sits in a directory that is in the sys.path and the directory also has a __init__.py file (import dirname.modulename / from dirname import modulname). if there is a modulename.pth file in the

unicodedata.name

2006-02-01 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
the unicodedata manual sais: name( unichr[, default]) Returns the name assigned to the Unicode character unichr as a string. If no name is defined, default is returned, or, if not given, ValueError is raised. what is the difference between no name defined and not given? eg. '\n' why gives

Re: unicodedata.name

2006-02-01 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
thank you (it's so obvious i don't know how i could misunderstand) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Numarray, numeric, NumPy, scpy_core ??!!

2006-01-22 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Basically all I need is vectors and 3x3 matrices. hmm is numpy really efficient for 3x3 (or 4x4) matrices and vectors? IMHO an optimized matrix4x4 class can be much faster (i'm just guessing here) eg cgtypes is a simple c++ implementation with boost-python wrapper:

Re: Looking for standalone Python

2006-01-17 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Is this possible? yes: movable python http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/movpy/introduction.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Arithmetic sequences in Python

2006-01-16 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
i would love to see a nice, clear syntax instead of for i in xrange(start, stop, step): ... because xrange is ugly and iteration over int sequences are important. we don't need a range() alternative ( [0:10] or [0..10] ) (because no one would ever use range() if there were a nice

Re: A bug for unicode strings in Python 2.4?

2006-01-11 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Thanks. I'll write my own split(). do you want to split character by character? then use list(u'\u9019\u662f\u4e2d\u6587\u5b57\u4e32') -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Do you have real-world use cases for map's None fill-in feature?

2006-01-10 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
There are so many varieties of iterator that it's probably not workable to alter the iterator API for all of the them. i always wondered if it can be implemented: there are iterators which has length: i = iter([1,2,3]) len(i) 3 now isn't there a way to make this length inheritible? eg.

Re: Do you have real-world use cases for map's None fill-in feature?

2006-01-10 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
There are so many varieties of iterator that it's probably not workable to alter the iterator API for all of the them. i always wondered if it can be implemented: there are iterators which has length: i = iter([1,2,3]) len(i) 3 now isn't there a way to make this length inheritible? eg.

Re: How to create a script that list itself ?

2006-01-09 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
But is there a way / a variable that contains the current file in memory ? yes: import __main__ you can do: import inspect import __main__ print inspect.getsource(__main__) or simply: print open(__file__).read() nsz -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Try Python update

2006-01-04 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
Hello Thanks for trypython, it's a cool idea I got TryPythonError after an IdentationError and i could not get rid of it (other than refreshing the page): Python 2.4.2 (#3, Dec 16 2005, 23:54:20) [GCC 2.95.4 20020320 [FreeBSD]] on freebsd4 Type help, copyright, credits, or license for more

Re: python for with double test

2005-12-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
for i in range(0,10): if f!=1: break ... i=0 while i10 and f==1: ... i+=1 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python coding contest

2005-12-30 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
my two solutions (well I wasn't so clever to encode everything in strings instead of numbers, but at least it won't give warnings about non ascii characters): 128: j,seven_seg=''.join,lambda s:j(j(' |_ |'[i3*int(c)b]for c in s for b in(4,2,1))+'\n'for i in(306775170,1060861645,524130191)) 122:

Re: What is unique about Python?

2005-12-24 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
i don't know if they are unique, but my favourite features are: readable and short code (consistent syntax, few keywords) iterpreter (very useful for learning) dir(obj) / vars(obj) (very useful for learning) identation dynamic typing lightweight oo (no public/protected/private) built-in types

Re: Python IDE's

2005-12-24 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
it's a very common question here. try to search for an answer http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?q=python+idestart=0scoring=d; also see http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors and http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments --

Re: What is unique about Python?

2005-12-24 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
identation Feh. A red herring. At best, syntactic sugar. At worst, something for potential adopters to get hung up about. i always ident my code, but in python i don't need to bother with the {} and the ; (which is redundant if i ident anyway) so i like it because i need to type less, and i

Re: How to get started in GUI Programming?

2005-11-25 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
have you tried gtk.MessageDialog ? http://www.pygtk.org/pygtk2reference/class-gtkmessagedialog.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: JAPH

2005-11-12 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
charset, modulo, japh = .JPacehknorstuy, 17, s = 69859911049503515105680510599913390885187193231927247909305172858127641629 for n in xrange(2,): if s%n==0: japh += charset[(n - 1) % modulo] s /= n if s==1: break print japh --

Re: which feature of python do you like most?

2005-11-09 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
which feature of python do you like most? i cannot chose one but here is my list: iterpreter (i can try out things at once) dir(obj) (using dir() i can learn a new library quickly) identation (code is readable, no need for {} and ;) dynamictyping (no type declaration - less code to write)

Re: PNG processing with only base python install

2005-11-08 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
use pil for image processing in python (http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/) if pil is not installed then i don't think you can process png files (well at least there is a pure python jpeg decoder: http://davidf.sjsoft.com/files/pyjpeg/) --

Re: How to translate python into C

2005-10-28 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
python creates bytecode (like java classes) you cannot translate python directly to c or machine code, but there are some projects you probably want to look into Pypy is a python implemetation in python and it can be used to translate a python scrip to c or llvm code. (large project, work in

Re: How to translate python into C

2005-10-28 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
python script crashed and you want to debug it? if no trace back provided with the line number where the exception raised, then the crash caused by an extension module (most likely written in C), i don't know howto debug it, but at least you can find the place where the crash occures by adding

Re: Where to find python c-sources

2005-10-03 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
if u just want to browse the code online then use this: http://fisheye.cenqua.com/viewrep/python/python/dist/src *much* nicer than sourceforge cvs viewer nsz -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Builtin classes list, set, dict reimplemented via B-trees

2005-09-14 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
IMO sorted dict implementation can be useful, eg. one can get an interval: L = D['A' : 'K'] other useful data types: linkedlist queue, stack (well deque can do it efficiently in py 2.4) prioritydict (for graph algorithms) multimap, multiset (i've never used it but it's in the c++ stl) mutable

Re: Python linear algebra module -- requesting comments on interface

2005-09-11 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
nice interface, but with 3d apps i prefer cgkit's approach, which has vec3, vec4, mat3, mat4 and quat types with lots of useful functions for 3d graphics (like mat4.looakAt(pos, target, up) or mat3.toEulerXYZ()) there are other libs with similar types and functions: cgkit

Re: Possible improvement to slice opperations.

2005-09-05 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
with the current syntax L[i:i+1] returns [L[i]], with nxlist it returns L[i+1] if i0. L=range(10) L[1:2]==[L[1]]==[1] L[-2:-1]==[L[-2]]==[8] L=nxlist(range(10)) L[1:2]==[L[1]]==[1] L[-2:-1]==[L[-1]]==[9] # not [L[-2]] IMHO in this case current list slicing is more consistent. --

time.clock() problem under linux (precision=0.01s)

2005-08-18 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
I have to measure the time of a while loop, but with time.clock i always get 0.0s, although python manual sais: this is the function to use for benchmarking Python or timing algorithms So i tested timer functions capabilities with a short script: import time import os def test_timer_func(func):

Re: Python for Webscripting (like PHP)

2005-08-18 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
I don't think stdlib offers anything like that The problem with python is it's white space sensible and html is not. However there are some nice solutions: http://www.webwareforpython.org/Papers/Templates/ my favourite is not listed here: http://karrigell.sourceforge.net/ For web development

Re: Python interpreter error: unsupported operand type(s) for |:

2005-08-11 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
you cannot use | with two dict (dict has no .__or__ method) what are you trying to do? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Case Sensitive, Multiline Comments

2005-05-27 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
i found case sensitivity very useful 1. variables can be stored in a dict (think about __dict__, globals()) and dict type should be case sensitive 2. It's necessary when i write short scripts and i use one letter names. (eg. when i playing with linear algebra i always use a,b,c for vectors and

Re: PyGTK vs. wxPython

2005-04-27 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
it's not quite true since the latest stable release (2.6.0.0) see the new wx doc (it's generated with epydoc so it's not for C++): http://www.wxpython.org/docs/api/ i used wxPython with XRCed a few times and i liked the way it works (worked under linux and win as well for me) nsz --

Re: PyGTK vs. wxPython

2005-04-27 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
I forgot to mention in my previous post that the best thing in wxPython is the wxPython demo. It helped me a lot. Browsing through the examples usually faster than browsing through the api doc. About XRCed: I put every static components of the window layout in an xml file with XRCed (not static

Re: Modifying Call Tips and Intellisense Behavior

2005-03-07 Thread Szabolcs Nagy
have a look at eclipse + pyDev http://pydev.sourceforge.net/ probably it works as you wish -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list