Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-18 Thread Christos Georgiou
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:15:19 -0600, rumours say that Ron Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cheese (or the lack of cheese) is never silly, Thus the slogan... The power of cheese. Now if you want silliness, then the correct establishment for that is The

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Terry Hancock
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 11:58:05 -0500 Peter Decker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, you're straying so far from the original thought behind this thread, and that is that the Python website is using some terms differently than the majority of people who will eventually use the site would

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Terry Hancock
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:22:09 -0700 Steven Bethard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link).

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Tim Parkin
Terry Hancock wrote: On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:22:09 -0700 Steven Bethard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Harald Armin Massa
Tim, For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python, not developing python. one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are: http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html people developing with something. So, unless we get /F or BDFL to do an even more

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Paul Boddie
Harald Armin Massa wrote: one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are: http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html I was wondering when someone would mention the developers, developers, developers Ballmer song-and-dance incident: clearly, he isn't chanting about internal

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Paul Boddie wrote: one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are: http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html I was wondering when someone would mention the developers, developers, developers Ballmer song-and-dance incident: clearly, he isn't chanting about internal

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Peter Decker
On 3/16/06, Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But the usual distinction (on any project web page) is User versus Developer. Who is a user of Python? That would be you, right? It would be fairly silly to have a page only for people who have programs written in Python that they use

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-16 Thread Paul Boddie
Fredrik Lundh wrote: since when is Microsoft a programming language ? Well, to many a recruiter or middle-manager it almost is a kind of programming language, given their often vague usage of that and other product and technology names. But anyway, people who call themselves Java developers,

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread A.M. Kuchling
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link). I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the python-dev link. As others have

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread Robert Boyd
On 3/14/06, A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link). I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread Steven Bethard
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link). I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the python-dev

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread Fredrik Lundh
A.M. Kuchling wrote: I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the python-dev link. As others have noted, Developers is ambiguous about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop Python itself.Core Development? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: A.M. Kuchling wrote: I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the python-dev link. As others have noted, Developers is ambiguous about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop Python itself.Core Development? (Used on both

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-14 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: A.M. Kuchling wrote: I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the python-dev link. As others have noted, Developers is ambiguous about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop Python itself.Core Development? (Used on both

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers--Gratuitous self-quote

2006-03-14 Thread Chris Smith
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/0150222 Customer: Well, then, have you got any Venezuelan Beaver Cheese? Owner: Sir, this is a self-respecting establishment. I shall thank you not to imply we should traffic in VB, much less, even mention the foul product. Props, Chris --

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-13 Thread Max M
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100, richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to name. it. And he did, Cheese Shop. I liked the name, so it was done. When the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-13 Thread Sybren Stuvel
A.M. Kuchling enlightened us with: Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy'). I love The Python Cheese Shop. It's original and distinctive. Besides that, it gives you more information that PyPI since Python

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-13 Thread Michael
Not every name has to fully reflect the named. I mean, Microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, but no way that you can guess that from the name. MICRO computer SOFTware. Seems pretty obvious to me and I'd expect the same from any tech person.pipi and cheese shop both

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-13 Thread Sybren Stuvel
Michael enlightened us with: Microsoft is the largest software company on the planet, but no way that you can guess that from the name. MICRO computer SOFTware. Seems pretty obvious to me Where is the size of the company in that story? The fact that they make software is rather obvious

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
A.M. Kuchling wrote: richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to name. it. And he did, Cheese Shop. I liked the name, so it was done. When the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
just change the link on the main site to read packages and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link). /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: just change the link on the main site to read packages and while you're at it, change python-dev to developers and psf to foundation (or use a title on that link). /F For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python, not developing python.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Tim Parkin wrote: For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python, not developing python. the page it leads has headings that say Python Developers Guide and Links for Developers, and contains links about Development Process, Developer FAQ, etc. I'm convinced that

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python, not developing python. the page it leads has headings that say Python Developers Guide and Links for Developers, and contains links about Development Process, Developer FAQ,

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Tim Parkin wrote: Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers' link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of people think differently to you. so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site testing ? /F --

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers' link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of people think differently to you. so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Peter Decker
On 3/12/06, Tim Parkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: freinds and colleagues both online and off.. Some of whom are python programmers, most not. Without a budget for 'comprehensive testing' then the next best thing is asking people, at least you'll generally get rid of the big bloopers.. it's

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Peter Decker wrote: I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something that might interest me. even when it appeared below News, Documentation, Download, Community, and Links buttons on a site dedicated to

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Aahz wrote: Given the number of people who post off-topic to python-dev, I don't agree with you. have you ever asked them where they found the mail address? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Tim Parkin wrote: the page it leads has headings that say Python Developers Guide and Links for Developers, and contains links about Development Process, Developer FAQ, etc. I think telling people they are in the wrong place isn't quite as good as helping them get to the right place.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Paul Boddie
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Peter Decker wrote: I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something that might interest me. Re-adding the missing disambiguating text: It would not occur to me that this

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Peter Decker
On 3/12/06, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Decker wrote: I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something that might interest me. even when it appeared below News, Documentation,

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Paul Boddie wrote: It's clear that people use the term Python developer similarly to Oracle developer, where you don't get many people in the wild actually developing Oracle products themselves, and so the term has an established meaning of someone developing with that technology. Thus, many

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: I surely hope you're not optimizing the site only for people who don't in- tend to leave the front page... I sureley hope you can stop being facetious.. Tim Parkin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Peter Decker wrote: Can't say I've ever run into anything that hadn't already been reported. how did you check if it was already reported ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Peter Decker
On 3/12/06, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Decker wrote: Can't say I've ever run into anything that hadn't already been reported. how did you check if it was already reported ? I asked about it on this list, or on the wxPython list, or whatever was the appropriate list.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Peter Decker wrote: I would have then asked where to report it. on the earlier site, there was a link on the frontpage. on the current site, you'll have to look under python-dev (or in a group of links de- scribed as developer info on the download site). Of course, you're straying so far

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Ron Adam
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'. while PSF is completely incomprehensible for someone who doesn't already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ? Looks like a good place for a tool tip, PSF is

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Ron Adam wrote: I think the PSF is important enough to have a link on *every* page. It doesn't need a lot of space, but it should be easy to get to from anywhere on the web site. a copyright blurb at the bottom of the page would be one obvious place to put it. /F --

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Steve Holden
Tim Parkin wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: I surely hope you're not optimizing the site only for people who don't in- tend to leave the front page... I sureley hope you can stop being facetious.. And I surely hope we can all work together for the better representation of

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Paul Boddie
Fredrik Lundh wrote: [Developer links and developer/development resources] this assumes that the developers link lead to a page that's entirely useless for people developing with Python. that's not even true for today's developer page... True. As you say, there are links to bug reporting

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Paul Boddie wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: (I'd solve this by adding disambiguation to the page itself, since people can arrive on it in many different ways. good information design is not only about what's on the front page...) True, but then I'd hope that, for example, a Support link would lead

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Parkin
Steve Holden wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: I sureley hope you can stop being facetious.. And I surely hope we can all work together for the better representation of Python to *all* of its communities :-) regards Steve My apologies to all, I shouldn't rise to the

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Ron Adam
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Ron Adam wrote: I think the PSF is important enough to have a link on *every* page. It doesn't need a lot of space, but it should be easy to get to from anywhere on the web site. a copyright blurb at the bottom of the page would be one obvious place to put it. Yes,

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread skip
amk Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think amk we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy'). There was already a pippy: Python for Palm... Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread jjcassidy
richard wrote: [snip] Should the Python Cheeseshop have anything in it, though? Having a stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Ed Leafe
On Mar 12, 2006, at 3:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: amk Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think amk we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy'). There was already a pippy: Python for Palm... I second the suggestion

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Paul Boddie
Tim Parkin wrote: Still some work left cleaning up after the move to the new site but this is going to be a priority very soon. Do you want me to include you on any emails regarding this? I'll have a look into the site developer tools for python.org and see what I can contribute. Paul --

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Tim Hochberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: richard wrote: [snip] Should the Python Cheeseshop have anything in it, though? Having a stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly! Well, it shouldn't have any *cheese*, but that's probably OK for a software repository. --

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-12 Thread Ron Adam
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: richard wrote: [snip] Should the Python Cheeseshop have anything in it, though? Having a stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly! Cheese (or the lack of cheese) is never silly, Thus the slogan... The power of cheese. Now if you want silliness, then

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-11 Thread A.M. Kuchling
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100, richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to name. it. And he did, Cheese Shop. I liked the name, so it was done. When the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-11 Thread Tim Churches
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100, richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to name. it. And he did, Cheese Shop. I liked the name, so it was done. When the new pydotorg machines went live last year,

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-11 Thread Mike C. Fletcher
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100, richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to name. it. And he did, Cheese Shop. I liked the name, so it was done. When the new pydotorg machines went live last

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-11 Thread Peter Decker
On 3/11/06, Mike C. Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realise it's an incredibly boring name, but what about pronouncing it as the package index or the Python Package Index. Spelling it PyPI if one insists on a very short name in some written context is fine, but try not to use it when

Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-10 Thread richard
So I wrote PyPI back a couple of years ago. It was just a simple cgi script and some distutils code. I needed to call it *something* and Python Package Index seemed like a fairly obvious name. Unfortunately, it's also quite a mouthful. A friend suggested PyPI as a good shorter name. He also

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

2006-03-10 Thread Sybren Stuvel
richard enlightened us with: Rejoice! No more confusing conversations with PyPy developers! Thanks for sharing that. I always wondered where the name came from :) Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we