Steven D'Aprano writes:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:22:25 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
>
> > A group of (a particular amount of) U+0020 characters is visually
> > indistinguishable from a U+0009 character, when the default semantics
> > are applied to each.
>
> Hmmm. I'm not sure there actually *is* suc
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico :
>
>> Not quite; tools like diff that put a character at the beginning of
>> the line are likely to be tab-aware,
>
> No, just tried it again: diff outputs tabs as tabs.
>
>$ diff abc def
>1,2c1,2
>< abc
>
Chris Angelico :
> Not quite; tools like diff that put a character at the beginning of
> the line are likely to be tab-aware,
No, just tried it again: diff outputs tabs as tabs.
$ diff abc def
1,2c1,2
< abc
< abc
---
> def
> def
where line 1 begi
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> The unix tradition is to let the TTY interpret the TABs. Utilities such
> as "ed", "cat", "diff" or "gcc" don't interpret or process TABs in any
> way but simply output them together with the rest of the text.
Not quite; tools like diff that
Steven D'Aprano :
> * editors don't handle tabs correctly
But you said yourself:
> I'm not sure there actually *is* such a thing as "default semantics"
> for tabs.
What is "correct" handling of ASCII TAB characters in a text file?
The unix tradition is to let the TTY interpret the TABs. Utilit
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> If editors were to standardise on the convention "display a
> HORIZONTAL TAB character as visibly distinct from a sequence of
> spaces" (e.g. by shading the background a different colour, or overlying
> it with an arrow)
DeScribe Word Proce
On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:22:25 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> A group of (a particular amount of) U+0020 characters is visually
> indistinguishable from a U+0009 character, when the default semantics
> are applied to each.
Hmmm. I'm not sure there actually *is* such a thing as "default
semantics" for
Dan Sommers writes:
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
>
> > […] a poor design decision (a line beginning with U+0020 SPACE is
> > semantically different from a line beginning with U+0009 CHARACTER
> > TABULATION) can be irrevocable – the syntax can't be changed now,
> > with
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> The makefile syntax is one of the excellent examples of why it's a
> terrible idea to use tab characters in source code. It's also an
> excellent example of how a poor design decision (a line beginning with
> U+0020 SPACE is semantically diff
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> The story of makefiles is a warning of the dark side to "release early,
> release often", and the dangers of using alpha software in production:
>
> [quote]
> Why the tab in column 1? Yacc was new, Lex was brand new. I hadn't tried
> either
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> The makefile syntax is one of the excellent examples of why it's a
> terrible idea to use tab characters in source code.
Hmmm... I'm not sure that conclusion follows. I think that makefile
syntax is an example of why it is a terrible idea t
Dan Stromberg writes:
> But I finally acknowledged that some very smart people don't
> understand tabs, or don't want to learn how to use them.
One day, you may reach the further realisation that those same very
smart people *do* understand tabs, and *do* know how to use them — and
nevertheless
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Rick Johnson
wrote:
> Well Steven all i can hope is that one day you and i will be
> working on a project together, and you will ask me for a
> "touch", and when i return with a petrol soaked rag burning
> on the end of twig and proceed to light your hair on fire,
>
In article ,
Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Tobiah wrote:
> > Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> > to indent. I prefer tabs.
>
> I recently converted from tabs to spaces. I probably still have some
> code that uses tabs, but most of my personal stuff h
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I like tabs. Tabs work better for me than spaces, because I know how
> to use them. Also, some "make" tools insist on tabs.
Those tools are just as broken as the ones that only work with spaces.
Fortunately, I can't even remember the last t
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> to indent. I prefer tabs.
I recently converted from tabs to spaces. I probably still have some
code that uses tabs, but most of my personal stuff has been converted.
I like tabs. Tabs work bette
On Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:15:32 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> (By the way, outside of the USA, flashlights in the rest
> of the English- speaking world are usually called
> "torches", so called because, like the old-fashioned
> burning torch, they provide light.)
Well Steven all i can hope
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Dan Sommers wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:27:59 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> How often do you ever have multiple consecutive blank lines? My
>> newlines are either single (line end) or in pairs (one blank line),
>> and I don't remember having anything else (
On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:27:59 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> How often do you ever have multiple consecutive blank lines? My
> newlines are either single (line end) or in pairs (one blank line),
> and I don't remember having anything else (at least, not
> intentionally). Greater separation than a b
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 4:57 AM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> I find it a little curious that nobody ever seems to advocate the use
> of vertical tabs instead of repeated newlines. It should offer the
> same benefit as horizontal tabs, namely that one could then
> independently configure one's editor to sepa
On 05/07/2014 23:03, Michael Torrie wrote:
On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards :
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person wri
On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards :
>
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>
> Often one person writes the code and another person
On 2014-07-05 19:57, Ian Kelly wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
wrote:
Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
which allow each viewer to view the code in his or her level
of indention,,, however, i cannot justify using a tab as a
replacement for a space. T
In article ,
Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
> wrote:
> > Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
> > which allow each viewer to view the code in his or her level
> > of indention,,, however, i cannot justify using a tab as a
> > replacement fo
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
wrote:
> Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
> which allow each viewer to view the code in his or her level
> of indention,,, however, i cannot justify using a tab as a
> replacement for a space. Tabs should be used for "tabular"
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:47:45 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
> [A continuation of my last reply...]
>
> Here is a recent situation that occurred to me that showcases the
> tendency of humans to carelessly bind illogical terms to common objects,
I think you mean the tendency of certain people to go of
On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 20:57:14 +1200, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Rick Johnson wrote:
>> Why is a handheld light called a flashlight? It does not flash,
>
> According to Wikipedia, originally it did:
>
> "Early flashlights ran on zinc–carbon batteries, which could not provide
> a steady electric curren
Rick Johnson wrote:
Why is a handheld light
called a flashlight? It does not flash,
According to Wikipedia, originally it did:
"Early flashlights ran on zinc–carbon batteries, which could not provide a
steady electric current and required periodic 'rest' to continue functioning.
Because thes
On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Rick Johnson
wrote:
> Of course, I'm anxiously await my friend to ask for a "drop
> light" -- oh boy, that will be fun! >:^)
Just wait till you get into theatre, and people start asking for
parcans, domes, bubbles, gobos, gels, and workers. If you can't learn
a li
> On Jul 4, 2014, at 11:29, Lie Ryan wrote:
>
>> On 04/07/14 07:55, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
>>>
>>> Why do you consider t
[A continuation of my last reply...]
Here is a recent situation that occurred to me that showcases
the tendency of humans to carelessly bind illogical terms to
common objects, thereby creating a inverse esoteric of
ubiquitous illogic, in this case, the term: "flash-light".
===
On Thursday, July 3, 2014 12:31:04 PM UTC-5, Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
I'm saddened that every one of these little "tabs versus
spaces" arguments revolve more around selfishness and less
around an understanding of what a "tabs" and "spaces"
actually *are*, be
On 2014-07-05 11:17, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> > PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
> >
> > obj.method(foo,
> >bar,
> >baz)
> >
> > which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
>
> Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that reg
Roy Smith wrote:
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime. The list goes on and on. You will
never control what tools other people use.
Yes, but my point is that none of the tools are "broken",
they're just incompatible.
--
Gre
Lie Ryan wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that regard.
I also happen to think that recommendation is insane
On 04/07/2014 20:04, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Lie Ryan wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
If course you can do it with tabs. Just
In article ,
Lie Ryan wrote:
> PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
>
> obj.method(foo,
> bar,
> baz)
>
> which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
If course you can do it with tabs. Just make sure all your method names
On 4 July 2014 15:54:50 BST, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
>that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align
>perfectly,
>and the code runs as expected.
If using vim, set list and listchars, you get to highlight tabs
On 04/07/14 07:55, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining things
> I assume any sane editor has similar functionality. I see my coworkers
> using vim, sublime, eclipse, and X-code. They all appear to do these
> things, and I would thus classify any of them as sane editors. I'm sure
> there are others. If the tool you're (in the generic sense of "you")
> usin
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:19:24 -0700, Maciej Dziardziel wrote:
>> Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
>> working systems? :)
>
>
> Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
Incorrect.
[steve@ando ~]$ python3
Python 3.3.0rc3 (default, Sep 27 201
In article ,
George Silva wrote:
> Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
> team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
> row. I'll just configured Sublime to insert spaces instead of tabs. Problem
> solved.
On emacs, I used auto
> Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
>
> working systems? :)
Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 04/07/2014 16:57, Emile van Sebille wrote:
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille wrote:
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille wrote:
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
Definitely. Indenting with tabs
Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
row. I'll just configured Sublime to insert spaces instead of tabs. Problem
solved.
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Mark Lawrence
wrote:
> On 04/
Mark Lawrence :
> Only for the very old fashioned Python 2, the modern Python 3 has
> booted mixed tabs and spaces into touch.
Since Python 3 (alas!) got into the business of booting, it should have
booted tabs altogether.
Marko
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 04/07/2014 14:59, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
>is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
>different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs.
On 04/07/2014 15:54, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards :
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in i
On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards :
>
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>
> Often one person writes the code and anothe
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille wrote:
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems
Grant Edwards :
> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
> out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
adds features to it. So if one uses
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille wrote:
> On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
>> I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
>> is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
>> spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
>> preferenc
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
>is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
>different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime. T
In article ,
Gregory Ewing wrote:
> As long as *all* your tools follow that convention, everything
> is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
> different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime. Th
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Tobiah wrote:
> Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long
> ago, having little feeling for some dolt on
> a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to
> edit my code.
And yet, you did not give up an even more insane line length limit, in
e-mail. The longest
wxjmfa...@gmail.com:
> Le vendredi 4 juillet 2014 08:35:04 UTC+2, Gregory Ewing a écrit :
>> The truly broken tools IMO are things like mail handlers that shrink
>> away in terror when they see a tab and remove it altogether. There's
>> no excuse for that, as far as I can see.
>
> Yes, and you can
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining things
up in a tabular fashion in your source c
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Disadvantages of tabs:
- Many standard Unix/Linux/POSIX tools have a hard time dealing with tabs.
I call such tools *broken*,
They're not broken, they're just using a different set of
conventions. Unix traditionally uses tab characters as a
form of space compression. The
On Jul 3, 2014 10:31 AM, "Tobiah" wrote:
> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code unification comes down.
One issue that I've encountered in the past (one of the reasons outside of
pep8) that I switched to spaces is when working with libraries other than
your own. If you want to stick print s
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
> >> Summing up: if you care about other human beings, use spaces. If you
> >> don't care about other human beings, you may use tabs, but other human
> >> beings surely will take how you treat them in
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
>> Summing up: if you care about other human beings, use spaces. If you
>> don't care about other human beings, you may use tabs, but other human
>> beings surely will take how you treat them into account ;-).
>
> Ha ha, that's funny, I would
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:07:28 +0300, Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 03:38:27 +1000
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah wrote:
>> > Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
>> > tabs. Boss want's us to unify.
>>
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> As I understand it, Unix coders tend to prefer spaces, and Windows users
> tend to be more comfortable with tabs. This isn't a hard-and-fast rule,
> you'll find plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that Unix tools are
> unforgiving of t
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 10:31:04 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
> tabs. Boss want's us to unify.
Point out to your boss, and your co-worker, that PEP 8 *explicitly*
states that it is not compulsory except for the standard library, and
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly. Prob
Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long ago, having little
feeling for some dolt
Same to you.
Haha, the language was too strong. The code I'm talking about is
only going to be seen by a small group of programmers. The current
trio has all been here for over 20 years. I'd be more co
On 07/03/2014 12:40 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
difficult time editing the code.
That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit pre
On 3 July 2014 18:31:04 BST, Tobiah wrote:
>Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
>to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
>unify.
This isn't worth arguing about. Pick a convention, it's probably going to be a
compromise, get used to it. PEP8 is as good a base as any, and is (m
On 07/03/2014 12:44 PM, Simon Ward wrote:
On 3 July 2014 18:31:04 BST, Tobiah wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I
prefer tabs. Boss want's us to unify.
This isn't worth arguing about.
How point of view changes things.
Anyway, I gave up the 80 char lin
On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
> > difficult time editing the code.
>
> That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
> editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit prefectly.
> Not so for tab-inde
> Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming
> more optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others
> say about the 80 char line length?
>
> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
> unification comes down.
I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of "PEP8 is optional or
obsolete", t
On 2014-07-03, Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
> tabs. Boss want's us to unify. The sole thing you get with spaces
> as far as I can tell, is that someone loading the code into Notepad
> will still see a 4 character indent.
Or any editor at
Hello,
On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 03:38:27 +1000
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah wrote:
> > Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> > to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
> > unify.
>
> 1) PEP 8 is meant to be guidelines, *not* a set of hard-and-fast
>
On 07/03/2014 10:46 AM, Tim Chase wrote:
Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming
more optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others
say about the 80 char line length?
Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
unification comes down.
I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of "
Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
> unify. The sole thing you get with spaces as
> far as I can tell, is that someone loading the
> code into Notepad will still see a 4 character
> indent. That may be true, but that sa
In article ,
Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> to indent. I prefer tabs.
> [...]
> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
> unification comes down.
There are so many battles to fight that are worth fighting. This isn't
one of them. Just go with pep-8 and
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah wrote:
> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
> unify.
1) PEP 8 is meant to be guidelines, *not* a set of hard-and-fast rules.
2) Tabs let different people display the indents at different widths.
Yo
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify. The sole thing you get with spaces as
far as I can tell, is that someone loading the
code into Notepad will still see a 4 character
indent. That may be true, but that same person
is going to have
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