Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Bill Jones wrote: On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. [snip] Kee Nethery My gut feeling (which could

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 14, 10:15 pm, Bill Jones wrote: > On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > > My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core > > Pythonistas are cheesed off with newbies who refuse to help themselves. > > The funny thing is that their response is to shutdown changes

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Kee Nethery wrote: > > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on > > this list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it > > has become anti-newbies. > > [snip] > > > Kee Nethery > > My gut feeling (which cou

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 2:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > r wrote: > > Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good > > folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must > > wait for new version? > > As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been > ava

[OT] From: header - WAS: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Hello Paul, This is strictly OT, but when you get a chance, could you contact me off list at the above address? I need your help with the From: email address specified in your posts to the list. Thanks, CJ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

...(Carl Banks doing what he does best) > > I'm mailing you to kindly request, again, that you please stop > > validating "r"'s disruptiveness by responding to him on > > comp.lang.python.  Thank you. Carl, You have no right to tell people when where and how they should speak to anyone. And how da

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: r wrote: Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > r wrote: > > Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good > > folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must > > wait for new version? > > As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been > ava

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been available for months. -- Kindest regards. Mark Lawrence. -

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the "Tutorial" link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the HISTORY OF THE WORLD. Upon clicking the "Tutorial" link pre 2.6, a nice menu w

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the "Tutorial" link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the HISTORY OF THE WORLD. Upon clicking the "Tutorial" link pre 2.6, a nice menu was placed b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On 2009-08-11, max bianco wrote: > I assume I am misunderstanding you here and you meant something else? > Python is paraded as a good language for beginners. I believe it is a good language for beginners. > Is this a false statement or a secondary objective? Objective of what? > Or are the d

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On 2009-08-11, Paul Rubin wrote: > r writes: >> Some say the tutorial is not meant for non-programmers, but for >> programmers with no Python experience. So! How does that justify >> obstruction of the tut? Why not present the same information in a way >> both can easily understand? > > I agree

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Kee Nethery wrote: > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this > list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it has become > anti-newbies. > > Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other newbie

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:35:26 -0700, Kee Nethery wrote: > > >> > Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow >> > inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki? >> >> It's a good question and deserves a good answer. >> >>

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Raymond Hettinger writes: > Here is the page specifically marked for those who are new to programming: > http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide Oh cool, I didn't know about that one. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r writes: > Some say the tutorial is not meant for non-programmers, but for > programmers with no Python experience. So! How does that justify > obstruction of the tut? Why not present the same information in a way > both can easily understand? I agree that a tutorial for non-programmers would b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

[Paul Rubin] > I think the Python tutorial is aimed at users who are newbies to > Python but not newbies to programming.  Writing a tutorial for total > newbies is a completely different problem, that would result in a much > different document that's less useful to the existing tutorial's > intend

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... Only useless feedback. [snip] I am sorry but i feel many here would not judge fairly based on the merits of an idea without allowing "b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: > > Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... > > Only useless feedback. And who decides what is useless and what isn't Steven?. You?, alex23?, Bruno?, Paul? Carl? Who makes these decisions and

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

David Lyon wrote: On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote: As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. What is m

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Kee Nethery wrote: > I too find the Python docs not very useful and it really slows down my > learning curve. > > I wonder if it would make sense to find good tech writers, get a quotes, > and get some professionally written documentation WITH LOTS OF EXAMPLES > a

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r a écrit : (snip) A little note for tutorial writers: == Dear Expert, Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your material... I can only second Paul on this : just like

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: > So, what you're advocating is let things stay how they are... If it's not broken, don't fix it. > Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... Only useless feedback. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r writes: > Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you > may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your > material... pssft, this may come as a surprise, but tutorials are > meant for *NON-EXPERTS*! I think the Python tutorial is aimed at users who are

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote: > As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea > of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody > who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. What is more terrifying is

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 10, 11:13 am, Ethan Furman wrote: (snip) > As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea > of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody > who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. (snip) Ethan, I think what you and a f

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other newbies getting shamed for not knowing

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:27:49 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Further, I have seen many requests here which are nothing really to do > with Python, say a query about which algorithm to use. Response "Not > really a Python question, but try ...". Put the same question on (say) > the C ng and you'd b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin wrote: > Stephen, Alex, etc.: have you actually used the php.net doc system? > Don't knock it til you've tried it.  IMO it is superior to Python's > system.   I've tried it, a lot. Is it okay for me to keep criticising it now, or would you like some time t

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 6, 11:36 am, Kee Nethery wrote: > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on   > this list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it   > has become anti-newbies. I don't think this NG is anti-newbie so much as anti-whining-loser. Unfortunatel

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. [snip] Kee Nethery My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core Pythonistas ar

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin schreef: > Steven D'Aprano writes: >> As for the rest, you're right that the current bug-tracker puts up >> barriers to people submitting comments and bugs. That's actually a good >> thing. The only thing worse than not enough information is too much >> information, and the current s

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 12:41 am, alex23 wrote: ...(snip) > How about a secondary site that embeds the docs and provides > commenting functionality around it? That's certainly a finitely scoped > project that those with issues about the docs could establish and > contribute to, with the possibility of it gainin

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Terry Reedy wrote: >RayS wrote: >> http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.array.php is a prime example >> [ ... ] >I consider consider this to an unreadable mishmash. [compared to] > something compact and readable. Are you talking about the language or the documentation? 9-) (Actually, th

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other newbies getting shamed for not knowing everything there is

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 5:15 pm, Dave Angel wrote: > alex23 wrote: > > Paul Rubin wrote: > > >> The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically > >> editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread > >> where people can post questions and answers ab

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Steven D'Aprano writes: > As for the rest, you're right that the current bug-tracker puts up > barriers to people submitting comments and bugs. That's actually a good > thing. The only thing worse than not enough information is too much > information, and the current situation does a good job o

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 9:25 pm, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > If you want an open-access documentation system go right ahead and build > one. There are plenty of wikis available to use, and the Python docs are > freely available as your starting point. I might even contribute myself. > I just don't want it mixed in

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:35:26 -0700, Kee Nethery wrote: > > Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow > > inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki? > > It's a good question and deserves a good answer. > > * Fewer Steps > * Immediate > * Does not need to be formally rev

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 3:35 pm, Kee Nethery wrote: (snip) Kee, that was an eloquent and enlighting post and i think it speaks volumes to the lack of inclusion of all Pythoneers in this community. Not to mention the viscous attitudes and self indulgence we have around here. For those of you with ADD, Kee was

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, alex23 wrote: Kee Nethery wrote: I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for documentation changes. I'm n

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

David Robinow wrote: >  When one believes that development is controlled by a cabal which is > jealous of outsiders and actively prevents improvements to the docs, > any change, even if only in perception, helps to weaken the hold of > the evil forces holding back the success of Python. Yeah, it'

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:48 PM, alex23 wrote: > Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow > inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki? When one believes that development is controlled by a cabal which is jealous of outsiders and actively prevents improvements to the docs,

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: > I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the   > official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see   > that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for   > documentation changes. I'm not sure what you see as being funda

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 11:03 am, Kee Nethery wrote: ...(snip) > I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the   > official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see   > that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for   > documentation changes. +1 -- ht

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

During all this conversation there was a ticket posted in the bug tracking system with the suggestion of each section in the official docs linking to a fixed wiki page that can contain user contributions. The ticket has been closed because this addition to the official docs is already in th

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin wrote: > Such evaluation would only do them good.  The official docs are full > of errors and omissions, which is why we have this thread going on > here in the newsgroup. And there is a process for reporting and correcting such errors and omissions, which

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

alex23 wrote: Paul Rubin wrote: The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that doc page. I thought it worked re

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

alex23 writes: > I'd still like to see this kept out of the official docs as much as > possible, mostly for reasons of brevity & clarity. I think the > official docs should be considered definitive and not require a > hermeneutic evaluation against user comments to ensure they're still > correct..

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

alex23 wrote: Paul Rubin wrote: The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that doc page. I thought it worked re

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin wrote: > The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically > editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread > where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that > doc page.  I thought it worked really well.  

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 6, 11:20 am, Paul Rubin wrote: ...(snip) > There is something similar with the PostgreSQL docs.  There is also > Real World Haskell (http://book.realworld.haskell.org) which has a lot > of interspersed user comments.  It would be cool if Python's doc site > did

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

alex23 writes: > No offence, but the last thing the official documentation needs is > example code written by people learning how to code. Suggest changes, > request clarifications, submit samples for review, sure, but direct > modification by users? I've seen the PHP docs; thanks but no thanks.

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: > As I struggle through trying to figure out how to make python do   > simple stuff for me, I frequently generate samples. If some volunteer   > here would point me towards the documentation that would tell me how I   > can alter the existing Python docs to include sample code, I

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 6, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: RayS wrote: At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote: """... Any real sense of community is undermined -- or even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that strive, unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of community.""" I've brought up th

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

RayS wrote: At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote: """... Any real sense of community is undermined -- or even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that strive, unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of community.""" I've brought up the idea of the quasi-community doc that PHP uses

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote: """... Any real sense of community is undermined -- or even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that strive, unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of community.""" I've brought up the idea of the quasi-community doc that PHP uses to good effect

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 4, 12:55 am, David Lyon wrote: > It isn't totally about the writers... > Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems. > If "Fred X wrote Doc Y".. they don't want their name taken off.. So > they generally speaking don't want the docs changed. > If you talk too much about docs.. you can be tol

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 4, 3:55 pm, David Lyon wrote: > It isn't totally about the writers... > Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems. Citation please. > If "Fred X wrote Doc Y".. they don't want their name taken off.. So > they generally speaking don't want the docs changed. Ditto. > If you talk too much

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

It isn't totally about the writers... Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems. If "Fred X wrote Doc Y".. they don't want their name taken off.. So they generally speaking don't want the docs changed. If you talk too much about docs.. you can be told you're OT.. even in a thread about docs...

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

I too find the Python docs not very useful and it really slows down my learning curve. I wonder if it would make sense to find good tech writers, get a quotes, and get some professionally written documentation WITH LOTS OF EXAMPLES added to the standard Python documentation tree. I'd chip