RE: XML Considered Harmful

F. Stemper Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 9:04 AM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 28/09/2021 18.21, Greg Ewing wrote: > On 29/09/21 4:37 am, Michael F. Stemper wrote: >> I'm talking about something made >> from tons of iron and copper th

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 28/09/2021 18.21, Greg Ewing wrote: On 29/09/21 4:37 am, Michael F. Stemper wrote: I'm talking about something made from tons of iron and copper that is oil-filled and rotates at 1800 rpm. To avoid confusion, we should rename them "electricity comprehensions". Hah! -- Michael F. Stemper

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 29/09/2021 06.53, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > On 28/09/2021 10.53, Stefan Ram wrote: >> "Michael F. Stemper" writes: >>> Well, I could continue to hard-code the data into one of the test >>> programs >> >>    One can employ a gradual path from a program with hardcoded >>    data to an entity sh

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 29/09/21 4:37 am, Michael F. Stemper wrote: I'm talking about something made from tons of iron and copper that is oil-filled and rotates at 1800 rpm. To avoid confusion, we should rename them "electricity comprehensions". -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 8:00 AM Stefan Ram wrote: > JSON is a kind of a subset of JavaScript for JavaScript > programmers. In Python, we can use JSON too, or we can > use Python itself. > > When some external requirement to use a data exchange > notation like JSON should appear, one can

RE: XML Considered Harmful

we worked on what Hypertext should look like, ... -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Michael F. Stemper Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 2:41 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 28/09/2021 13.27, Avi Gross wrote: > Well, Michael, if

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 28/09/2021 13.27, Avi Gross wrote: Well, Michael, if you want to go back to the eighties, and people you worked with, I did my Thesis with a professor who later had an Erdős number of 1! Too bad I never got around to publishing something with him or I could have been a 2! Lucky you. If a pap

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Am Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:53:49PM -0500 schrieb Michael F. Stemper: > This sounds like a suggestion that I hard-code the data into a > module. I suppose that I could have half-a-dozen modules with > different data sets and ln them as required: > > $ rm GenData.py* FuelData.py* > $ ln gendata1.py

RE: XML Considered Harmful

mainly in PASCAL. Ah the good old days. -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Michael F. Stemper Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 11:45 AM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 28/09/2021 02.25, Peter J. Holzer wrote: > On 2021-09-27 21:01:04 -0

RE: XML Considered Harmful

ike you do want something easier to create while editing. -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Michael F. Stemper Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 11:38 AM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 27/09/2021 20.01, Avi Gross wrote: > Michae

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 28/09/2021 10.53, Stefan Ram wrote: "Michael F. Stemper" writes: Well, I could continue to hard-code the data into one of the test programs One can employ a gradual path from a program with hardcoded data to an entity sharable by different programs. When I am hurried to rush to a

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 28/09/2021 02.25, Peter J. Holzer wrote: On 2021-09-27 21:01:04 -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote: You keep talking about generators, though. If the generators are outside of your program, then yes, you need to read in whatever they produce. As I understood it, the "generators" don't g

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 27/09/2021 20.01, Avi Gross wrote: Michael, Given your further explanation, indeed reading varying numbers of points in using a CSV is not valid, albeit someone might just make N columns (maybe a few more than 7) to handle a hopefully worst case. Definitely it makes more sense to read in a li

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/2021 11.26, David L Neil via Python-list wrote: > On 25/09/2021 11.00, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> Invented because there weren't enough markup languages, so we needed another? > > Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UB1YAsPD6U Article (rather brief) i

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-27 21:01:04 -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote: > You keep talking about generators, though. If the generators are outside of > your program, then yes, you need to read in whatever they produce. As I understood it, the "generators" don't generate the data, they are the subject of th

RE: XML Considered Harmful

Monday, September 27, 2021 11:40 AM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 25/09/2021 16.39, Avi Gross wrote: > Michael, > > I don't care what you choose. Whatever works is fine for an internal use. Maybe I should have taken the provoking article with a few

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 2:30 AM Michael F. Stemper wrote: > As far as power is concerned, this is utility-level generating fleets, > so it's always going to be MW -- even in the US, where we still use > BTUs for heat. > It's easy for *you* to know, and therefore assume, that it's always MW. But s

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/2021 16.48, 2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com wrote: On 2021-09-25 at 15:20:19 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" wrote: ... For instance, if I modeled a fuel like this: ton 21.96 18.2 and a generating unit like this:

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/2021 16.39, Avi Gross wrote: Michael, I don't care what you choose. Whatever works is fine for an internal use. Maybe I should have taken the provoking article with a few more grains of salt. At this point, I'm not seeing any issues that are applicable to my use case. But is the dat

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 9:09 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote: > > In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico wrote: > > Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote: > >> I'd use one of the netpbm formats instead of JPEG. PBM for one bit > >> bitmaps, PGM for one channel (typically gra

Re: XML Considered Harmful

In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico wrote: > Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote: >> I'd use one of the netpbm formats instead of JPEG. PBM for one bit >> bitmaps, PGM for one channel (typically grayscale), PPM for three >> channel RGB, and PAM for anything else (two channel gray plus a

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 26/09/2021 10.48, 2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com wrote: > On 2021-09-25 at 15:20:19 -0500, > "Michael F. Stemper" wrote: > >> ... For instance, if >> I modeled a fuel like this: >> >> >> ton >> 21.96 >> 18.2 >> ... > Disclaimer: I am not a big XML fan, for a number of

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 26/09/2021 10.07, Stefan Ram wrote: > "Michael F. Stemper" writes: >> fitting hierarchical >> data into rows/columns just seems wrong > > There were hierarchical database management systems like > IMS by IBM based on that point of view. Today, almo

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-25 at 15:20:19 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" wrote: > ... For instance, if > I modeled a fuel like this: > > > ton > 21.96 > 18.2 > > > and a generating unit like this: > > > > > > > > > > > > >

RE: XML Considered Harmful

thers have already produced the data using other tools, in which case you have to read it in at least once/ -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Michael F. Stemper Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2021 4:20 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful O

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 21/09/2021 13.12, Michael F. Stemper wrote: If XML is not the way to package data, what is the recommended approach? Well, there have been a lot of ideas put forth on this thread, many more than I expected. I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to contribute. Most of the reasons giv

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-25, Peter J. Holzer wrote: > On 2021-09-24 23:32:47 -, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote: >> JSON Schema provides a way to denote composite types. > > I probably wasn't clear what I meant. In XML, every element has a tag, > which is basically its type. So by looking at an XML file (

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Am Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 08:59:23PM +0200 schrieb Peter J. Holzer: > JSON: Has a few primitive data types (bool, number, string) and a two > compound types (list, dict(string -> any)). Still missing many > frequently used data types (e.g. dates) But that (dates) at least has a well-known mapping t

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-24 23:32:47 -, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote: > On 2021-09-24, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 8:53 AM dn via Python-list > > wrote: > >> On 25/09/2021 06.59, Peter J. Holzer wrote: > >> > CSV: Good for tabular data of a single data type (strings). As soon as >

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/21 10:51 am, dn wrote: XML: Originally invented for text markup, and that shows. Can represent different types (via tags), can define those types (via DTD and/or schemas), can identify schemas in a globally-unique way and you can mix them all in a single document (and there are tools ava

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/21 11:00 am, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 8:53 AM dn via Python-list wrote: and YAML? Invented because there weren't enough markup languages, so we needed another? There were *too many* markup languages, so we invented another! -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/21 6:34 am, Peter J. Holzer wrote: Several hundred genes were recently renamed because Excel was unable to read their names as simply strings and insisted on interpreting them as something else (e.g. dates). Another fun one I've come across is interpreting phone numbers as floating poi

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/21 6:29 am, Peter J. Holzer wrote: don't forget that XML was intended to replace SGML, and that SGML was intended to mark up text, not represent any data. And for me this is the number one reason why XML is the wrong tool for almost everything it's used for nowadays. It's bizarre. It'

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-24, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 8:53 AM dn via Python-list > wrote: >> On 25/09/2021 06.59, Peter J. Holzer wrote: >> > CSV: Good for tabular data of a single data type (strings). As soon as >> > there's a second data type (numbers, dates, ...) you leave standard >>

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/2021 11.00, Chris Angelico wrote: > Invented because there weren't enough markup languages, so we needed another? Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UB1YAsPD6U -- Regards =dn -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 8:53 AM dn via Python-list wrote: > > On 25/09/2021 06.59, Peter J. Holzer wrote: > > There are a gazillion formats and depending on your needs one of them > > might be perfect. Or you may have to define you own bespoke format (I > > mean, nobody (except Matt Parker) tries

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 25/09/2021 06.59, Peter J. Holzer wrote: > There are a gazillion formats and depending on your needs one of them > might be perfect. Or you may have to define you own bespoke format (I > mean, nobody (except Matt Parker) tries to represent images or videos as > CSVs: There's PNG and JPEG and WEB

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-21 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > I read this page right when I was about to write an XML parser > to get data into the code for a research project I'm working on. > It seems to me that XML is the right approach for this sort of > thing, especially since the data is hierarch

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-23 06:53:10 -0600, Mats Wichmann wrote: > The problem with csv is that a substantial chunk of the world seems to > live inside Excel, This is made sp much worse by Excel being exceptionally bad at reading CSV. Several hundred genes were recently renamed because Excel was unable to read

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-21 19:46:19 -0700, Dan Stromberg wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 7:26 PM Michael F. Stemper < > michael.stem...@gmail.com> wrote: > > If XML is not the way to package data, what is the recommended > > approach? > > > > I prefer both JSON and YAML over XML. > > XML has both elements an

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Or then use cryptographic methods to protect your XML file when in transit. Like encryption and/or signatures. Mostowski Collapse schrieb am Freitag, 24. September 2021 um 15:46:27 UTC+2: > BTW: I think its problematic to associate Java with XML. > Michael F. Stemper schrieb am Dienstag, 21. Sep

Re: XML Considered Harmful

BTW: I think its problematic to associate Java with XML. Michael F. Stemper schrieb am Dienstag, 21. September 2021 um 20:12:33 UTC+2: > On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: > The above linke is very old, from 2004, and might

Re: XML Considered Harmful

phone) Original message From: dn via Python-list Date: 24/9/21 15:42 (GMT+10:00) To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On 24/09/2021 14.07, Stefan Ram wrote:> dn writes:>> With that, why not code it as Python expressions, and include the mod

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 24/09/2021 14.07, Stefan Ram wrote: > dn writes: >> With that, why not code it as Python expressions, and include the module? > > This might create a code execution vulnerability if such > files are exchanged between multiple parties. The OP's spec, as quoted earlier(!), reads: "It's m

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 1:44 PM Dan Stromberg wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 8:12 PM Chris Angelico wrote: >> >> One good hybrid is to take a subset of Python syntax (so it still >> looks like a Python script for syntax highlighting etc), and then >> parse that yourself, using the ast modul

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 8:12 PM Chris Angelico wrote: > One good hybrid is to take a subset of Python syntax (so it still > looks like a Python script for syntax highlighting etc), and then > parse that yourself, using the ast module. For instance, you can strip > out comments, then look for "VAR

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 12:22 PM Stefan Ram wrote: > > dn writes: > >With that, why not code it as Python expressions, and include the module? > > This might create a code execution vulnerability if such > files are exchanged between multiple parties. > > If code execution vulnerabilities a

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 22/09/2021 07.22, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > On 21/09/2021 13.49, alister wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: >> >>> On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: >>> Given the source, shouldn't one

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-23, Stefan Ram wrote: > The real problem with CSV is that there is no CSV. > > This is not a specific data language with a specific > specification. Instead it is a vague designation for > a plethora of CSV dialects, which usually dot not even > have a specification. Indeed.

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 7:11 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote: > > In comp.lang.python, Christian Gollwitzer wrote: > > Am 22.09.21 um 16:52 schrieb Michael F. Stemper: > >> On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: > >>> Yes, CSV files can model that. But it would not be my fir

RE: XML Considered Harmful

more like that? -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Stefan Ram Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 5:43 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful "Avi Gross" writes: >But scientific papers seemingly allow oodles of authors and any time

RE: XML Considered Harmful

well be a fairly slow and even error-prone way to solve a problem. -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of Chris Angelico Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 9:27 AM To: Python Subject: Re: XML Considered Harmful On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 10:55 PM Mats Wichmann wrote: > >

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 23/09/2021 12.51, Eli the Bearded wrote: Am 22.09.21 um 16:52 schrieb Michael F. Stemper: On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: Yes, CSV files can model that. But it would not be my first choice of data format. (Neither would JSON.) I'd probably use XML. Okay. 'Go not to the elves for

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 22/09/2021 17.37, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:52:59 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" declaimed the following: On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: In comp.lang.python, Michael F. Stemper wrote: How does CSV handle hierarchical data? For instance, I have Can CSV

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Am 22.09.21 um 16:52 schrieb Michael F. Stemper: On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: Yes, CSV files can model that. But it would not be my first choice of data format. (Neither would JSON.) I'd probably use XML. Okay. 'Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.

Re: XML Considered Harmful

In comp.lang.python, Christian Gollwitzer wrote: > Am 22.09.21 um 16:52 schrieb Michael F. Stemper: >> On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: >>> Yes, CSV files can model that. But it would not be my first choice of >>> data format. (Neither would JSON.) I'd probably use XML. >> Okay. 'Go no

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 10:55 PM Mats Wichmann wrote: > > On 9/22/21 10:31, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > > > If you control both the data generation and the data consumption, > > finding some format ... > > This is really the key. I rant at people seeming to believe that csv is > THE data in

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 9/22/21 10:31, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: If you control both the data generation and the data consumption, finding some format ... This is really the key. I rant at people seeming to believe that csv is THE data interchange format, and it's about as bad as it gets at that, if you

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:52:59 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" declaimed the following: >On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: >> In comp.lang.python, Michael F. Stemper wrote: >>> How does CSV handle hierarchical data? For instance, I have >>> generators[1], each of which has a name, a fuel and

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" declaimed the following: >On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: > > >One thing that it tangentially says is "XML is not the answer." > >I read this page right when I was abo

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 21/09/2021 19.30, Eli the Bearded wrote: In comp.lang.python, Michael F. Stemper wrote: I've heard of JSON, but never done anything with it. You probably have used it inadvertantly on a regular basis over the past few years. Websites live on it. I used to use javascript when I was runnin

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 21/09/2021 16.21, Pete Forman wrote: "Michael F. Stemper" writes: On 21/09/2021 13.49, alister wrote: On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: It's my own research, so I can give myself the data in any format that I like. as far as I can see the main issue with XML i

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Jon Ribbens writes: > On 2021-09-21, Pete Forman wrote: >> CSV is quite good as a lowest common denominator exchange format. I >> say quite because I would characterize it by 8 attributes and you >> need to pick a dialect such as MS Excel which sets out what those >> are. XML and JSON are contro

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 7:26 PM Michael F. Stemper < michael.stem...@gmail.com> wrote: > If XML is not the way to package data, what is the recommended > approach? > I prefer both JSON and YAML over XML. XML has both elements and tags, but it didn't really need both. This results in more complex

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 9/21/21 11:12 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > It seems to me that XML is the right approach for this sort of > thing, especially since the data is hierarchical in nature. If you're looking for a format that you can read (as a human) and possibly hand-edit, check out NestedText: https://ne

Re: XML Considered Harmful

In comp.lang.python, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > I've heard of JSON, but never done anything with it. You probably have used it inadvertantly on a regular basis over the past few years. Websites live on it. > How does CSV handle hierarchical data? For instance, I have > generators[1], each of wh

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-21, Pete Forman wrote: > CSV is quite good as a lowest common denominator exchange format. I say > quite because I would characterize it by 8 attributes and you need to > pick a dialect such as MS Excel which sets out what those are. XML and > JSON are controlled much better. You can ea

Re: XML Considered Harmful

r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes: > - S expressions (i.e., LISP notation) If you're looking at hierarchical data and you don't have some good reason to use something else, this is very likely to be your simplest option. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:22:52 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > On 21/09/2021 13.49, alister wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: >> >>> On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: >>> >>> >>> One thi

Re: XML Considered Harmful

"Michael F. Stemper" writes: > On 21/09/2021 13.49, alister wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > It's my own research, so I can give myself the data in any format that I > like. > >> as far as I can see the main issue with XML is bloat, it tries to do >> too m

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 21/09/2021 13.49, alister wrote: On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: One thing that it tangentially says is "XML is not the answer." I read this page right wh

Re: XML Considered Harmful

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> writes: > In comp.lang.python, Michael F. Stemper wrote: >> I've heard of JSON, but never done anything with it. > > You probably have used it inadvertantly on a regular basis over the > past few years. Websites live on it. If the user has any interaction

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:12:10 -0500, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: > > > One thing that it tangentially says is "XML is not the answer." > > I read this page right when I was about to write an

XML Considered Harmful

On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: One thing that it tangentially says is "XML is not the answer." I read this page right when I was about to write an XML parser to get data into the code for a research project I'm working on

Re: XML Considered Harmful

On 2021-09-21, Michael F. Stemper wrote: > On the prolog thread, somebody posted a link to: > > > One thing that it tangentially says is "XML is not the answer." > > I read this page right when I was about to write an XML parser > to get data