Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Etienne Laliberté
Thanks Peter, summary.permat are plot.permat are very useful, thanks for that. If I understand correctly from your help page and code, the problem you describe is primarily with sequential algorithms, where the "null" matrix obtained from a given run can actually be quite similar to the one obtai

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Peter Solymos
Dear Etienne, As Jari Oksanen pointed out, we found that quantitative null models can be really odd, and I view them as a last resort for doing community analyses. Their value must be judged by using independent methods. Just an example that worth mentioning: the "swap" and "quasiswap" methods in

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Peter Solymos
Etienne, We used Chi-square statistic to inspect randomness, see the code in summary.permat. To test the convergence of sequential algorithms, you can use time series and MCMC diagnostic tools. Peter 2010/1/7 Etienne Laliberté : > Many thanks Jari for your input. > > I'll have a look at this

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Etienne Laliberté
Many thanks Jari for your input. I'll have a look at this backtracking method and see how I could implement it. Ensuring that the null matrices are indeed random is clearly good advice, and I'd need to do this, but do you have any suggestions on how to do this in practice? A copy of the script yo

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Jari Oksanen
On 07/01/2010 21:48, "Etienne Laliberté" wrote: > Many thanks again Carsten. Yes, you're right that care must be taken to > ensure that a decent number of unique random matrices must be obtained. I > don't think it would be a problem in my case given that transforming my > continuous abundance

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Etienne Laliberté
Many thanks again Carsten. Yes, you're right that care must be taken to ensure that a decent number of unique random matrices must be obtained. I don't think it would be a problem in my case given that transforming my continuous abundance data to count by mat2<- floor(mat * 100 / min(mat[mat > 0

Re: [R-sig-eco] null models with continuous abundance data

2010-01-07 Thread Carsten Dormann
Hi Etienne, I'm afraid that swap.web cannot easily accommodate this constraint. Diego Vazquez has used an alternative approach for this problem, but I haven't seen code for it (it's briefly described in his Oikos 2005 paper). While swap.web starts with a "too-full" matrix and then downsamples,