Andrew,
You make a decent argument, but it is flawed. A tech working on a faulted
array removing modules without disabling them is likely to be injured
whether or not there is a lug or a clip. The circuit must be disabled before
taking loose anything. Not an easy task, but necessary. The
Please STOP using this subject heading. It is disrespectful to one
manufacturer and is annoying. Call it Array Grounding or anything but this.
Bill.
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Andrew,
At some point when that tech has to start pulling up modules, he also is going
to have to loosen the ground lug. I don't see the situation where we would
loosen all the mounting hardware, and not the ground lug. (I've usually seen
solid #6 with the Ilsco lugs, so there's very little
Maybe this should be on the NABCEP test.
R. Walters
On Sep 13, 2010, at 8:04 PM, benn kilburn wrote:
Hopefully any crew installing PV, and familiar with this debate (which they
should be) can easily distinguish between the GBL-4 and the GBL-4DBT. The
weight difference is quite noticeable.
The technician dies? - one would hope a person would have the sense to
wear safety gear, per OSHA and NFPA standards, when debugging a ground
fault.
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202 fax 802.863.7908
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
NYSERDA Incentive-eligible Partner
Hi all
I have a very large client (160 acre campus) who wants a few as many as 40
trackers, I am installing and on the road. But wants to gain experience with
one unit. Does any one know or have a 225 they would be willing to part with
and wait for my order?
Also Client says that
William,
Here's a link to listed splices made by Burndy, and compared to exothermic
welding.
http://portal.fciconnect.com/res/en/pdffiles/brochures/Quick_Ref_Guide.pdf
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer
NYSERDA-eligible
It is quite ironic that just a week after I posted a question to the group
on testing the integrity of lightning arrestors, I had one apparently faulty
out of the box. The manifest of this was interesting: when the AC LA
(LA302R) was connected in parallel on the AC input to a SB3000 inverter,
William - Actually, that is not the case. The way I was taught to install
modules is by setting the module on the rail with the ground lug on the
elevated section of frame, connecting the ground wire and module conductors,
then lowering the module onto the rails and tightening the clamps. The
I believe the AC GEC runs from; the point where the ungrounded current
carrying conductor is bonded to the enclosure of the service enterance
equipment; to the connection to the ground electrode system. Conductors that
run from the service enterance equipment, thru the premis to the Enphase are
The code does require the GEC to be continuous (250.64C), and I believe that
the AC EGC for the Enphase metal inverter cases is in fact the same as the DC
GEC since the point of system bonding on the DC side is inside the
inverter. See art. 100 definitions:Grounding Electrode Conductor. A
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Hi Kristopher:
How about not using them. I refer to lightning arrestors as lightning
faeries. We install them to make us feel safe. They are there to protect our
equipment, but we aren't really sure if they work. They are inexpensive enough
to install, but don't really do anything.
We have a SDHW client that wants to replace his old water heater with a new
tankless water heater. We do a SDHW system about once a year, and only for
clients that are getting a PV system from us to begin with. So this is not a
big business line for us and we are behind the curve in terms of
All -
I guess my thought is a little off topic, but are lightning arrestors even
worth using at all? My logic has always been that if lightning does indeed
strike that it's likely going to blow the arrestor and and inverter. We
don't have much of a lightning issue issue in the Bay Area so I don't
All,
Our AHJ's started making us take the Deltas out a couple of years ago, as
they are not listed equipment. We kept ordering them for awhile, thinking
they were necessary, cheap insurance, intending to return after the
inspection and put 'em in. We now have a large, dusty stack of uninstalled
Wrenches:
I use WEEB for Enphase, WEEB lugs and jumpers for the rails, and WEEB for
modules, except with SunPower, which uses the GBL-4DBT. If the lug isn't
bolted
on, it probably isn't bonded.
The problem here is UL, not WEEB. I do not share Augusts concerns.
I still feel that
Try the Takagi. I believe that all their units will modulate down to zero.
Keep on eye on the temp rating of the unit...it is common practice to put
the thermostatic mixing valve on the input side of the tankless.
Kris
Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
My thought here is that nothing will protect the equipment from a direct
strike, but a near strike that may induce a significant surge may be
absorbed by the LA and protect the equipment. I like the feedback so far.
It would not break my heart to stop using them altogether.:-}
Kris
Legacy
I think we have made some progress here on the story line. So lets see if
we can understand what happened due to UL testing changes.
One other random question. I believe that SunPower permits drilling their
frame for the purpose of accommodating the lay-in lug, for example the
outside of the
Howdy Wrenches:
I don't try to stir things up, but I was just wondering last night as I
fell asleep reading the latest issue of HomePower magazine (# 139), if anybody
else caught a chill when they read this in the Code Corner (highlighted in
a box):
Both microinverters and microinverters
In John's white paper on wiring Enphases:
http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/Photovoltaics/Codes-Stds/WIRING%20ENPHASE%20MICROINVERTERS-11.pdf
he recommends covering the module first anyway so the load-break
disconnect isn't really an issue. Since you're at the module anyway to
disconnect that module
Since the GEC for Enphase starts at the inverter on the roof, you must have
a minimum of 8AWG running among the microinverters and down to the grounding
electrode system. In the 2008 NEC and 2011 NEC, this conductor can serve the
purpose of the ac EGC as well and can be terminated on the service
Matt,
NEC 90.1 says the purpose of the Code is practical safeguarding of
persons and property... Since a fuse (with the proper dc voltage
rating) sized less than 1.56 Isc in a PV circuit shouldn't be
considered a safety issue, the fact that the code has it as a
requirement does seem over the
You could buy several ground rods for the cost of one Delta.
Ground Impedance is the real issue. Both the Delta and the Polyphasor need a
good ground to work.
While I haven't seen much of a correlation between Deltas and reduced lightning
damage, (lots of system damage with and without)
I have
Stir away
Modern locking module connectors serve as DC disconnects for
micro-inverters. This point was alluded to in the Code Corner sidebar, but
not addressed in detail. It takes a little dance along Route 690 to drive
the point home to OCD-afflicted AHJs... But it's right there...
The
I believe that SunPower permits drilling their frame for the purpose of
accommodating the lay-in lug, for example the outside of the shorter
dimension. Can anyone confirm this?
Peter -
Yes, SunPower does allow drilling of the module frame in order to mount a
lay in lug.
Sharp also.
Mark
Citel products do have a listing mark but this is European style CE, not
American style UL/ETL. Citel is reputedly working on American certification
but one would be advised to not hold one's breath.
The Citel products which mount to a DIN rail have an LED indicator which
goes dark once the surge
Mr. Truitt,
You are obviously a talented installer, but please allow me to comment
on your point number 2.
The clip acts something like a mini-rivet and will still be connected
when the clamp is loosened. You will have to yank the clip off and
possibly damage it, which is why they are
On my own system I have a DC suppressor from
http://www.surgesuppression.com/
It's UL listed with a 25-year warranty. Not as cheap as a Delta (or
Citel as far as I know) though, but I felt a lot more confident with
this given our crazy lightning storms in FL.
DKC
Original Message
Matt,
I like your writing/presentation style. I like the content even more. Excellent
analogy.
I _will_ try this, given the opportunity.
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
- Original Message -
From: Matt Lafferty
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 1:48
CE is a self-certification that requires no 3rd party testing. In other words,
if you think your product meets a standard and take the time to write a letter
stating such, then you are CE certified. There are companies who you can pay to
give you the letter, but it is easy to go on-line, learn
I also live in a area without much lightning, however I install one in most
systems for the simple reason of insurance.
If there is lightning damage, the insurance company can't use that as a way to
not pay any claims.
ie cheap insurance.
jay
peltz power
On Sep 14, 2010, at 8:39 AM, August
Peter,
With all due respect, if you are only doing one SDHW system a year you might
want to consider hiring (subcontracting) someone who does keep up with at
least current technology and preferably state of the art.
As you are hopefully aware there are a number of ways to construct a SDHW
Hi All -
I would just add that having a good c-tap crimping tool on hand is just
about as valuable as it gets in the solar business. I remember holding off
on getting one because of the $200 or $300 price tag but once you have it
you won't believe you lived without it. The possibilities are
Jay -
I can see that point, but does that really effect insurance payout? It seems
like one could argue that a properly installed system with proper grounding
inspected by a building official has a lot more clout than and little grey
cylinder next to the inverter or disconnect.
Please all
Matt:
Well, thankyou for showing me the dance steps but don't think I'll
stop worrying about this one. I doubt I'll ever bring a skillsaw into
Planning and Building, which is where the dance begins and usually ends.
Besides,
I went cordless a looong time ago and all I ever carry
It seems to me that William's original question of where does the EGC stop, and
the GEC begin, all depends on whether the Enphase inverters bond negative to
ground internally.
Did we ever get an answer from Enphase?
If they don't, then I think by definition in article 100, we would only have an
My own limited field experience in lightning country (New Mexico, Colorado,
Wyoming, Texas, Oklahoma), has definitely proven your point. Grounding and
testing of the grounding system is the first line of attack against lightning.
Also, showing an insurance company (and the customer) ground
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