Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not whether they might hypothetically be okay in a different set of circumstances. I say they clearly are not. And I didn't take Marc's

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 4:28:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe tha

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 5:18:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But a corollary to the view that the state may not have opinions about the merits of Luke is that the state may not have opinions about what is an appropriate analysis of the book of Luke. Nothing in the Co

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 5:50:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Alan, this is a nice t

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't it absolutely compelled that public school teachers say something like this?  I would be outraged if a teacher presented as "fact" the giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses at Mount Sinai or, for that

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Jim Henderson asks, I think rhetorically, Will we really saddle our public school teachers with the burden of saying:  "of course, some people do not agree that this fact is true, some people specifically state that the circumstances described by this fact are false, some people find the ass

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Or is it that it is too burdensome for teachers to be "saddled" with the responsibility of telling their students

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

To begin with, at least some of the questions asked for interpretation and personal opinions. But 1. Does Jewish law require keeping kosher. 2. May orthodox women pray at the Western Wall. etc? MAG >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/10/04 5:23 PM >>> at the edges, maybe. but students are being taught t

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

California 5th grade curriculum appears at . It's hard to fit the assignment here into the state mandated framework. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/10/2004 2:13:48 PM >>> In California 5th grade is US history. 6th grade is from the beg

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not wh

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

at the edges, maybe. but students are being taught the essay form, not the substance. hence they can be graded by computer -- are at many colleges now are, from what I read. and there are forms of getting it right based on what is being presented. what are the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism -- you

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

But, and this is the less polemical point, what constitutes appropriate analysis with quotes. And here is the modernist point, a reason, by the way, that some members of this list think public schools unconstitution. There is no neutral vantage point on which to do the grading. What constitutes

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever."  What grade.  Does it ma

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever."  What grade.  Does it

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:14:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is   a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny. Marc raises an interesting point here.  Because he has a belief about so

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Scarberry, Mark wrote: Perhaps we should wait for confirmation that the "Easter handout" is authentic before judging Mr. Williams based on it. The source for it is a webpage that is very hostile to Mr. Williams and to the Alliance Defense Fund. Yes, that's why I was sure to s

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Perhaps we should wait for confirmation that the "Easter handout" is authentic before judging Mr. Williams based on it. The source for it is a webpage that is very hostile to Mr. Williams and to the Alliance Defense Fund.   Mark S. Scarberry Pepperdine University School of Law  

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I think the folks in the school district that you refer to would have had a pretty strong case that many of those assignments were impermissable. Was there ever a lawsuit filed in that case, by the way? At any rate, it has nothing to do with this situation. Let me ask you directly, Jim: do you

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 02:27 PM, Ed Brayton wrote: Steven Jamar wrote: Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. Mr. Williams teaches 5th grade. I should have been more clear -- I was responding to Henderson's inquiry about could such an assignment

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Steven Jamar wrote: Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. Mr. Williams teaches 5th grade. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Doubt my candor and sincerity about the matter if you choose to do so, but I would have no problem with the assignment posed by Sandy.   Of course, the teacher would be at great pains not to downgrade student responses that adopted viewpoints the teacher found to be odious, either that the Gospel

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Sandy's hypothetical is an excellent one, but let me add a refinement: I'm not sure that this assignment would violate the Establishment Clause, or even that Williams' assignment did so. Yet would anyone on the list think that it's unconstitutional for the school to conclude that this assignme

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? I'd say they're probably slim to none. All of that will of course c

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. I also think that we as lawyers, having been trained in a certain kind of compartmentalization and detachment and objectivity (please don't ignore the "certain kind" and blast me for an assertion I am not making), unde

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ed wrote: Yes, that one assignment, aside from the others and in an entirely different context, might be appropriate. But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? So my questio

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Imagine the following assignment by a Jewish teacher to his class in World History two weeks before Easter (when, it so happens, the syllabus for the course is treating the Holocaust): The account of Jesus's trial and subsequent punishment as set out in the Christian Gospels is viewed by many hi

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Ed wrote: Yes, that one assignment, aside from the others and in an entirely different context, might be appropriate. But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? So my questions is: If the assignment is

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Robert K. Vischer wrote: Let’s focus on the assignment to interview a Christian family about Easter and present the findings, as that seems, at least in my view, to be the least egregious.  If Williams had given similar interview assignments covering other faith traditions at oth

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Let’s focus on the assignment to interview a Christian family about Easter and present the findings, as that seems, at least in my view, to be the least egregious.  If Williams had given similar interview assignments covering other faith traditions at other holidays, wouldn’t that be palata

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

It is not an easy line to draw, but schools can teach about religion, about religious beliefs, about the roles of religion in history, and so on. But schools cannot teach the religion as truth. The school can teach that Muslims belief there is but one god and Mohammed is his prophet, but cannot t

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

. Those who have followed my work over the years know I have been publicly critical of those who would prohibit teaching about religion. I have just completed-at the request of the Bible Literacy project, an affiliate of the American Bible Society- , vetting a text to teach about the Bible

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Marc's humorous riposte provides, I suppose, all the analysis that he thinks the Williams' assignment justifies.  Having doubts, after laboring in the woodshed from time to time, that such humorous but otherwise pointless posts add anything of substance to the discussion, I will ask those who car

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

IF this is typical of what the teacher was complaining about being forbidden to teach, the only question for the court is whether plaintiff will be liable for the school's attorneys fee under Rule 11, Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behal

Steven Williams Case - more factual information

The key question in the Steven Williams case, as Jim Henderson and I agreed last week, will revolve around the facts of the case - the contents of the handouts that were disallowed by the principal and whether they indicate that what Mr. Williams was engaged in was proselytizing rather than tea