Alexander Macdonald wrote:
> ...I hope we're taking this as an honest difference of opinion about
> something we both love...
That comment was to Kate Dunlay, but if I may say, this thread has
shown remarkable civility and restraint on a topic which could have, in
other hands, become petty, chil
Jack Campin Wrote:
>> There are pipe tunes in G.
>Like what?
My comment:
See Nigel Gatherer's list. This was a side issue. The main one was your
statement that a fiddler would naturally play flat thirds in A major and
normal thirds in G because of the pipes. Nonsense.
She's playing a fiddle.
J
Jack Campin wrote:
>
Another table is pertinent to a discussion we had a few weeks ago;
> the lists of historic fundamental pitches beginning on p.495 show how
> fantastically implausible it is that anyone in Britain in the mid-to-
> late 18th century would have used a pitch below A=390, even for
Jack Campin wrote:
> > There are pipe tunes in G.
> Like what?
Miss Menzies
The Right Honble Lady Elcho
Thro' the Muir She Ran
Stormont Lads
(all from The Piper's Assistant - perhaps they're fiddle tunes adapted?)
Second Jig by Pipe Sergeant E MacDonald
The Red Brae by PM W Ross
The Clucking H
>To Kate Dunley; Hi. Kate, Glad to read your contribution.
[Hi Alexander, Glad to read yours too. My, aren't we all stubborn about
sticking to our positions through the years!!!]
>the very best CB fiddlers play with drive, good timing AND play in tune.
Some fiddlers are nearly perfect, aren't
>> Tunes in A are often pipe tunes and hence might be expected to be
>> given piping intonation. Tunes in G are never pipe tunes. So this
>> [slightly flattened thirds] is exactly what you *would* expect if
> the choice were a musical one.
> There are pipe tunes in G.
Like what? The only one I
Jack Campin Wrote:
Tunes in A are often pipe tunes and hence might be expected to be given
piping intonation. Tunes in G are never pipe tunes. So this is exactly
what you *would* expect if the choice were a musical one.
My comment:
There are pipe tunes in G. More importantly it is impossible f
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, David Kilpatrick wrote:
> Some local musicians with a well-known wee band were after 18
> microphones and a monster mixing desk - one mike for each players,
> including one per fiddle. This is not apparently to make them louder.
> It's so they can secretly turn the mike DOW
Toby Rider wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, John Chambers wrote:
>
> > So you'd think that fiddlers with a classical background would know
> > and understand that different musical groups use different intonation
> > rules. Traditional Scottish music shouldn't be anything other than
> > yet
Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, I don't think fiddlers play a flat C# so much in A major. I think
> the "supernatural" C happens in those tunes like the King tunes, which are
> in A mixolydian/dorian, in which case the example is analogous to what I
> described above.
Mes
>The reference was to fiddlers
>known tendency to play middle finger notes approximately mid way between
>the index and ring fingers as was described in Perlman's book on PEI
>fiddlers giving a flat C# in the key of A major; and that if this were a
>deliberate choice of interval then when playing
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Jack Campin wrote:
> > the "offending" notes sometimes have more to do with the fingering on
> > the fiddle and how difficult it is to play them. Therefore, it is not
> > necessarily the same intervals which offend in each key. This I can
> > see because for instance, I h
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, John Chambers wrote:
> So you'd think that fiddlers with a classical background would know
> and understand that different musical groups use different intonation
> rules. Traditional Scottish music shouldn't be anything other than
> yet another sort of intonation, to
Toby writes:
| I know about piper's being opinionated, however I still think
| alot of fidder's are even *more* opinionated.
This is especially ironic considering the tuning situation within the
classical crowd. Standard classical teaching brings out the fact that
tempered tuning really
To Kate Dunley; Hi. Kate, Glad to read your contribution.
Re your comment:
In Cape Breton fiddle music, playing with drive and good
timing is more important than playing in tune.
My comment:
Agree. However you're implying that the choices are mutually exclusive.
They need not be .In fact the ver
>> If the interval between A and a flatted C# were a deliberate musical
>> choice in the key of A major then the interval between G and B in the
>> key of G major should also be a flatted B. It never is.
> The reference was to fiddlers known tendency to play middle finger
> notes approximately mid
In response to my comment;
If the interval between A and a flatted C#
> were a deliberate musical choice in the key of A major then the
interval
> between G and B in the key of G major should also be a flatted B. It
> never is.
David Kilpatrick wrote:
You've never tuned a guitar by ear then.
My
> Pipers have the advantage that they don't have all those obnoxious
> pseudo-classical crossover players hanging around trying to tell them
> how to play. There are no strathspey and reel "societies" for pipers.
> Just pipe bands/bagpipe playing drinking clubs.
Yep, but the piping world does
> the "offending" notes sometimes have more to do with the fingering on
> the fiddle and how difficult it is to play them. Therefore, it is not
> necessarily the same intervals which offend in each key. This I can
> see because for instance, I have a terrible time playing in tune in E
> major.
On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg wrote:
> > Pipers have the advantage that they don't have all those obnoxious
> >pseudo-classical crossover players hanging around trying to tell them how
> >to play. There are no strathspey and reel "societies" for pipers. Just
> >pipe ba
Alexander wrote:
>
If the interval between A and a flatted C#
> were a deliberate musical choice in the key of A major then the interval
> between G and B in the key of G major should also be a flatted B. It
> never is.
You've never tuned a guitar by ear then. One of the nice things about
the f
> Pipers have the advantage that they don't have all those obnoxious
>pseudo-classical crossover players hanging around trying to tell them how
>to play. There are no strathspey and reel "societies" for pipers. Just
>pipe bands/bagpipe playing drinking clubs.
Are you kidding? Just like any
>simply out of tune
[temporarily emerging from real life to comment]
Although I have great respect for Alexander MacDonald's considerable
knowledge of Scottish/Cape Breton fiddle music and physics of sound
production, I think that "out of tune" tones have their place in music. I
sometimes witne
In response to my Tues 19:00 e-mail Anselm Lingnau wrote:
Quoting me:
> Altering the intervals of "the most perfect instrument" to those of
the "primitive and very imperfect" one makes no musical sense nor any
other sense.
Anselm's comment:
Well, both these comments come from fiddlers so what
On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Anselm Lingnau wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (SUZANNE MACDONALD) writes:
>
> > Altering the intervals of "the most perfect instrument" to those of the
> > "primitive and very imperfect" one makes no musical sense nor any other
> > sense
>
> Well, both these comments come fr
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (SUZANNE MACDONALD) writes:
> Altering the intervals of "the most perfect instrument" to those of the
> "primitive and very imperfect" one makes no musical sense nor any other
> sense
Well, both these comments come from fiddlers so what do you expect? Of
course a fiddler would
David Kilpatrick wrote:
The sharpened note is not out of tune. It is imitative of the *correct*
sharp pitch of the appropriate note on (in this case) Border pipes. Each
type of bagpipe - great Highland, Scottish smallpipe, Border,
Northumbrian and to a lesser extent the more elaborate and almos
>> You don't [get ringing-string effects] in Turkish playing
>> on either kind of "keman" (a word used for both Western fiddles and for
>> an instrument from Central Asia resembling the Chinese er-hu), as they
>> are played in as vocal a manner as possible.
Brainfart. "Keman" means a Western fi
David writes:
| I always wonder whether instruments have changed, or artists just
| couldn't draw them. I think the MOMI website (Museum of Musical
| Instruments) has some examples of the ambiguity of f-hole shapes, body
| lengths etc in old woodcuts.
In some historical circles, looking for "ho
Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > Odd thing is that similar brief bursts of 'drone' occur in smallpipe
> > playing
>
> What do you mean? The actual drones don't do "brief bursts"; are you
> talking about using a chanter note as a secondary pedal by filling in
> the subsidiary beats with it?
Probably.
[high G in the pipe scale]
> The sharpened note is not out of tune. It is imitative of the *correct*
> sharp pitch of the appropriate note on (in this case) Border pipes.
Yeah, but. This is a modern guess. Surviving old Border chanters have
often had this note drastically recut to sharpen it, a
SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:
>
> All of this brings us back to the beginning of this discussion, the
> pitch of the seventh note in a Scottish fiddle tune, specifically G# in
> the key of A major. The pitch of the seventh note is dictated by the
> ratios of the just intonation scale. Playing this no
On Wednesday July 12,10:27, Wendy Galovich:
> Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or
> do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail.
Um.. Actually I did read and understand them, and my own conclusion is
that
the main problem here is one o
Sigh.. This whole "what makes a style 'Scottish'?" question has
come up so many times on this list in the past, that it makes me sad and
tired just to think about it :-)
To put it bluntly, you have to be either not be listening, or
totally unfamiliar with the style to not hear it.
On Wednesday 11 July 2001 15:40, you wrote:
> Wendy Galovich wrote:
> Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or
> do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail.
Um.. Actually I did read and understand them, and my own conclusion is that
the ma
I'm correcting errors in my just sent e-mail
"unusuin" should read unison and condtitute constitute.
I also left out the Tertis last line quote.It is ".A note
infinitesimally flat or sharp
lacks the rich, round, penetrative, lucious sound that only a note
perfectly in tune will give you".
Alexand
Wendy Galovich wrote:
Comment:
Actualy that is not what I was saying. We are able to detect differences
in pitch but can't measure them. The human ear measures musical
intervals by tuning in the unison harmonics produced by the two notes.
Some are easy to do, such as the fifth, the third is mo
> This is also to do with the fact that the twelfth-root-of-two (or 1.059)
> ratio applies to `physically ideal' strings that have no diameter. If
> you look at a piano with the various lids and covers off you will find
> that this is obviously not true, especially for the bass notes. It turns
> o
In a message dated 7/9/01 9:01:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Non-tempered scales are common in a lot of kinds of music, >>
I remember studying accompanying (piano) at college when I was working on my
degree is *classical* music. I was working with a violinist, and s
On Tuesday 10 July 2001 13:54, you wrote:
> Wendy Galovich wrote:
> This is obvious if you're going to break the tempered scale down to that
> degree.
>
> Comment:
> 1. What is obvious?
..U.. the statements you made in the paragraph to which I was responding:
that in a literal sense it is im
Wendy Galovich wrote:
This is obvious if you're going to break the tempered scale down to that
degree.
Comment:
1. What is obvious?
2. I didn't break anything down. The ratio 1.059 is by definition the
interval of a semitone in the equal tempered scale. More about this
later.
Anselm Lingnau wrot
Anselm Lingnau wrote:
>
>
> As a pianist, I don't know what to make of all this varied-interval
> business. On the one hand, I'm half glad that I don't have to worry
> about it; on the other hand it seems that I can't really play Scottish
> music, which I think is a pity :^(
>
The use of crush
Wendy Galovich wrote:
>
>
> There is a recording floating around, of Mary MacDonald playing MacLean's
> Farewell to Oban, where she is hitting the C's and G's *exactly* between the
> sharp and natural position (I tried playing along with this a few times
> because I wanted to be sure I understo
On Tuesday 10 July 2001 00:26, you wrote:
>
> My comment:
> It does turn up in other fiddle traditions.
> The Connecticut and Massachusetts fiddlers cannot be playing,as you say,
> in the tempered scale because that is impossible on the fiddle. That
> would require each ascending note in the chrom
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (SUZANNE MACDONALD) writes:
> That is why a piano tuner has to achieve
> this objective by listening to the interplay between repeated fifths
> and fourths. Even employing this method and with infinitely more time
> than a fiddler has to play a single note, it has been demonstr
Wendy Galovich wrote:
I dunno.. in all honesty I find this assertion baffling. It goes without
| saying, that beginner fiddlers often miss the pitch they're aiming
for. But I
| didn't think this thread was about beginners. And it seems to me that
if
| playing "out of tune" as you describe it (and
Wendy wrote:
| On Monday 09 July 2001 14:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| > Many violinists/fiddlers have a common problem. There is a tendency to
| > play certain notes out of tune, for example C#'s on the A and G strings;
...
| I dunno.. in all honesty I find this assertion baffling. It goes with
On Monday 09 July 2001 14:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Re "When learning a reel in A major with a fiddler"
>
> Many violinists/fiddlers have a common problem. There is a tendency to
> play certain notes out of tune, for example C#'s on the A and G strings;
> G#'s on the E and D strings are fr
David Kilpatrick in response to Janice Hopper wrote:
Another point is the use of slightly microtonal sharps/flats and
instruments which are not in modern equal temperament. This is why most
Scottish music sounds utterly, totally wrong on electronic keyboards;
even the accordion, which is well lov
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << For harp you would assume that tuning using an advanced electronic tuner
> set to the same kind of temperament used for virginals, >>
>
> I gotta get one of those tuners! What I do on my clarsach is tune with the
> aid of a tuner (i
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< For harp you would assume that tuning using an advanced electronic tuner
set to the same kind of temperament used for virginals, >>
I gotta get one of those tuners! What I do on my clarsach is tune with the
aid of a tuner (it saves time) and then I play a couple of
Janice Hopper wrote:
>
>
> What's the definition of "Scottish in style?"
>
> Maybe I just need to go back to my CDs and listen a while longer. I think
> it's not so easy for many of us USians to recognize Scottish style. It's a
> good bit harder for me to recognize the Scottish musical "acce
In a message dated 7/7/01 10:01:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What about Shetland tunes? >>
Those are allowed in SHSA competitions. A different style of playing than a
lowland air, naturally.
Your advice to yourself to listen to recordings is the best advice. Also
>Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:20:04 EDT
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [scots-l] Scottish music & Harp competitions
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< Do you have to play the music in a
> Scottish manner? >>
>
>Absolutely. "Scottish Style" is one of the Evaluation Criteria. As Jo
>Morrison (
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