Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

Maybe the bolded and underlined part of 8.15.4.1 is something that ought to be rewritten if it is intended to refer to when specific building code sprinkler protection is installed at the opening, i.e. the 18” draft stop and sprinklers at 6 foot setup. The specific protection is what I thought i

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

8.15.4.1 General. Unless the requirements of 8.15.4.4 are met, where moving stairways, stairways, staircases, or similar floor openings are unenclosed and where sprinkler protection is serving as the alternative to enclosure of the vertical opening, the floor openings involved shall be protected

RE: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

Its never been a 'new' method for me for 30+ years. Sending full discharge pressure through a normally empty pipe and several thin gate valves is foolish imho. I very often get same pitot pressures with hose monsters on same length hoses or right on the header. When you have them spread out or i

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

The vertical rules say when using sprinklers as the alternative something something -I'm away from my desk (so far away at home in bed). Confirm it! It's why I said, "I hope this makes sense" Brad. Quoting JD Gamble : Does that mean that the vertical rules don't apply for this opening? Get

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

Well then, please disregard all of the previous discussion. Little details matter. Craig Prahl | JACOBS | Fire Protection | Greenville SC | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@ch2m.com | www.jacobs.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-b

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

Does that mean that the vertical rules don't apply for this opening? Get Outlook for iOS From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:13:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

You should probably confirm it with every one J.D. but it seems to me if separation (protection, enclosure) is not required there would be no reason to use sprinklers as an alernative for providing that separation. It's been ten years since I last designed, calcd, and listed a water curtain

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

Sorry. This is F-2 <12% alcohol. So no separation issue. But still a vertical opening issue. Get Outlook for iOS From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:56:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firespr

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

I’m sure the AHJ would balk at considering a restaurant as an F-1. So it sounds like there are several issues. First the architect needs to revisit and verify the separation requirements between an F-1 and an A occupancy. If the findings indicate that a 1-hour separation is required, don’t fo

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

The main is the 1st floor. Seating is around the tanks. 900sqft for tanks Basement is processing and production Get Outlook for iOS From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:11:34 PM To: spri

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

Do the whole building is F-1 with an open restaurant inside? On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:05 PM JD Gamble wrote: > Yes. F-1 in the basement with a through floor opening for the tanks. > Seating on the 1st around the tanks. Main level is restaurant with > restaurant seating. > > Get Outlook for iOS

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

Is the 900 sq. ft. opening to accommodate the height of the tanks. The tanks and their associated piping and controls are visible on the same level as the seating around the tanks? Is 1st flr and main level the same level or is it basement, 1st level with seating and main level above 1st for r

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

Yes. F-1 in the basement with a through floor opening for the tanks. Seating on the 1st around the tanks. Main level is restaurant with restaurant seating. Get Outlook for iOS From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Thurs

Re: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

Yes, I remember it being time consuming to throttle valves, as one valve was adjusted, the pitots changed on the others. Just making sure the data is valid. Tom Wellen On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:14 PM, Tom Wellen wrote: > > In my insurance days, I seldom had the same pitot pressures from > playp

Re: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

What is odd about this discussion is that having an automatic sprinkler system sort of implies there is a standard building code involved, yet a standard building code would have this platform built out of fire retardant treated wood when the platform is built out of wood. Your average Architect

Re: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

I've done them that way but the new method is to throttle the control valve supplying the test header. Mike From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Mike B Morey Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Playpip

RE: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

My experience has always been that the valves on the test header are throttled to match them all up as well. Eliminates a lot of math and record keeping concerns and makes it easy to be sure the fitters hit the right GPM points. Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fi

Re: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

I’ve done them many times and the pressures are the same. It’s done by throttling the individual valves.  It takes time and patience but it can be done.   Regards,Sean Conlin On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 2:22 PM, Hinson, Ryan wrote: #yiv7784289223 #yiv7784289223 -- _filtered #yiv7784289223 {p

RE: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

We adjust the test header valves to obtain identical pressure (of course with-in gauge accuracy). It helps to use calibrated pressure gauges of the correct range to produce pressure readings near the mid-span. John From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018

Re: In-Rack Sprinklers Required for CMSA

Ken, Thank you for your response. I received a response from NFPA that was consistent with yours, confirming that 17.2.2.6.1 is only to be applied where in-rack sprinklers are required by Table 17.2.2.1: “The answer to your question is “yes” the application of section 17.2.2.6.1 is describing

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL] [EXTERNAL]

So, is the A occupancy on the first floor and F-1 is the second floor? Is there seating on the first level and the opening is so you can see the equipment on the second floor? Per the IBC, for a fully sprinklered building there is a 1-hour fire separation requirement between F-1 and A. (Table

RE: Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

I’ve never seen them all identical. Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire Protection Engineer O 952-656-3662 \ M 320-250-5404 \ F 952-229-2923 rhin...@burnsmcd.com \ burnsmcd.com 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 \ Bloomington, MN 55437 *Re

Playpipe Pitot Pressures - Fire Pump Annual Tests

In my insurance days, I seldom had the same pitot pressures from playpipes. The pressures would be the same on several but others would be 1 to 2 psi different. I'm seeing fire pump reports consistently showing all the same pitot pressures for all four to six playpipes. I'm questioning that based

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

Restaurant/ Brewery No ratings, Something about F1 to A not requiring separation Light hazard seating ordinary in the brew area. Get Outlook for iOS From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:52

RE: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

Is this like an atrium? What's the occupancy? Any fire rating of floor/ceiling between levels? Craig Prahl | JACOBS | Fire Protection | Greenville SC | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@ch2m.com | www.jacobs.com Quoting JD Gamble : > I have a situation where we have 900sq.ft. vertical opening > c

Re: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

Another thought - you may also suggest filling the space entirely with noncombustible insulation.  That would negate the requirement for sprinklering the space and you would not have to calculate 3000 sq.ft.  8.15.1.2.7 & (11.2.3.1.4(4)(c)) Regards,Sean Conlin On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 1:28

Re: Antifreeze and NFPA 25

What ultimately is an impairment is the AHJ’s call. 13 says what you need solution wise for your climate, and whether pre-mixed or listed or not depending on the Edition it was installed under. 25 tells you what to test and what for. You report what you find. The AHJ decides if it’s an impairment t

Re: Antifreeze and NFPA 25

Frozen water or solution blocking flow could be considered an impairment. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) > > On Mar 29, 2018 at 12:26 PM, mailto:danett...@att.

Re: Vertical Opening

Is the opening required to be 'protected' from a building code standpoint? If it is, Then you look at the sprinkler rules, such as less than 1000 s.f. I hope this makes sense. Brad. Quoting JD Gamble : I have a situation where we have 900sq.ft. vertical opening communicating between two f

RE: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

This is just my opinion, but NFPA 13-02013, Section 8.16.6.2 requires that "(a) The space is inaccessible ..." and "(c) The floor ... is tight construction" in order to not provide sprinklers With the introduction of those hatches, both of these conditions are violated, so I think that sprinkl

Antifreeze and NFPA 25

Here's my question referring to my earlier post.  What would one consider an impairment?  We don't know what solution was initially installed in the CPVC antifreeze systems only that they are now 25 deg F to -10 deg F.  ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list S

Vertical Opening

I have a situation where we have 900sq.ft. vertical opening communicating between two floors where a draft stop is not a viable solution due to head room clearance. The design team isn't sure if or how to protect it? Thoughts? Options? It's a Light Hazard - Ord Hazard occ. The idea of "Barn

Re: In-Rack Sprinklers Required for CMSA

Drew, Here's my thought for what it's worth.  It was not addressed by the discharge committee and wasn't noticed by the Correlating Committee.  If you look one chapter earlier in 16.2.2.7.1 the concern you have _*was*_ and is addressed by the following text [all emphasis is mine]: 16.2.2.

Re: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

I'm actually glad we often suggest these architectural solutions to prioblems but it is the architect that needs to solve this problem. I'd tell him we can, or cannot install sprinklers because of code rule XYZ and ask him what he wants to do (RFI). If he wants you to solve the problem you are now

RE: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

Assuming 2 x 10 floor framing, How would a fitter install in that space or service in the future? Recommendation would be to install large Conduit so necessary cabling could be pulled as needed. Thus would allow completely sealing the space and or sheetrock the interior services. Making the space N

Re: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

If the platform is 16” high, my guess would be that it has a 3/4” deck on 2x8 joists. That would leave less than 8” between the bottom of joists and the floor. If this is an existing platform, that is going to be very difficult to install and maintain sprinklers in that space. Would

RE: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

You might be able to apply section 8.15.6 (2013 edition).If so, be aware of section 11.2.3.1.4(3). Ed Kramer Bamford Fire -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of P & P Sprinklers Ltd Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 8:

Re: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

Fire retardant lumber may have an impact (I’ve had them use it in the past). Not sure if the cabling creates a hazard, however. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell)

In-Rack Sprinklers Required for CMSA

Hello all! Long time listener, first time caller. NFPA 13 (2016 version) 17.2.2.6.1 reads "In-rack sprinklers shall be installed at the first tier level at or above one-half of the storage height." Could you confirm 17.2.2.6.1 doesn't REQUIRE in-rack sprinklers, and only identifies HOW to ins

RE: Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

Combustible concealed space in a light hazard occupancy. Hatches or no hatches ... Sprinklers yes. John Irwin DynaFire Inc. - "Same Day - Next Day" -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of P & P Sprinklers Ltd Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 9:48 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.fi

Church Worship Platform Concealed Space

We have a church that has a platform 16" High wood construction. They will be adding hatches for access just to run AV cabling. Will not be used for storage. the platform is roughly 1600 sq ft. Would sprinkler be required even with just a few hatched to access the cabling?

Re: Antifreeze Solution and NFPA 25

The post stated that the “impairment” was that the existing antifreeze did not match what they are using now (did they install the antifreeze in the first place? Is the existing a premix or was it mixed by the installer? Do we even know the history of the existing systems? All valid

RE: Antifreeze Solution and NFPA 25

Would the impairment be that there is not a ‘listed’ antifreeze solution to use for replacement? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. 184 Comfort Place Burnsville, NC 28714 Ph: 828-284-4772 cl...@fire-design.com

Re: Antifreeze Solution and NFPA 25

If you replaced the solutions with one that was rated for and tests at -15degF, what would be the impairment? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) > > On Mar 29, 2018

Antifreeze Solution and NFPA 25

We have several CPVC antifreeze systems that we've checked with a hydrometer to see the condition of the solution.  The ranges are from a +25 to a -10 deg. F.   NFPA 13 (2010) states in Figure A.10.5.1 that the lowest one-day mean temperature is 0 degrees for our location in sunny Texas. The manu