Re: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits

A final (ya right) fine point: The Standards allow for some leeway when dealing with existing buildings and systems so heat directors might find some applications, the most obvious being to replace any heat collectors out there. In the building where I work I see the max deflector distance

Re: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits

The Casterline Heat Director Model A Matt. I'll get started on it next weekend (this coming week I have to finish a stocklist and survey an existing attic. Is it just me or has anyone else wondered why attics seem to need to be surveyed in the middle of Summer?) Brad Quoting Matthew J

Sparkler Systems

quill pen ink is dry let the liberty bell ring declaration day ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

Quoting David Blackwell : Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities... "In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?" Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

In other words, if all the ATF is saying is that the fire started outside on the patio then it did, and the Federal Prosecutors are moving on to other cases. If the toilets flushed the water supply for this hazard would have been enough to smash that fire-- if it had started inside.

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

'what-was-wanting' the challenge for the 'up-and-coming' i love you scot Quoting "å... " : Consider the waterflow test really was 90 psig static, 20 psig residual and 363 gpm. If the fire started outside, the elevation pressure loss to operating sprinklers is minimal

Re: Existing 3/4" outlets

Does anyone make res heads with 3/4 npt? If so just replace the heads and let it overflow! The Standards only spell out minimums. Brad. Quoting Dewayne Martinez : I have a project that was originally designed as a OH II space that will now be turned into a

Re: Protection Area of Coverage for Sprinkler

Oh geez, here we go again. Now i'll never get to sleep. . Quoting Chris Born : 8.5.2.1.1 of the 2016 edition of NFPA 13 covers how to determine the area covered by a sprinkler. This seems to be pretty straightforward, but I’ve noticed some strange wording. Consider a

Re: Protection Area of Coverage for Sprinkler

I say a beam only acts like a wall if you can't throw under it, and if the sprinkler is that close, the heat flow AT THE SPRINKLER, due to the beam is also OBSTRUCTED... very wall-like behavior. I could probably dig up some snapshots tomorrow. Brad. Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: Oh

Re: Liquor Store

So far Bruce, yes. 45 years has not dulled Vincent's sense of humor (my first mentor- he kept me in stitches while instilling a love for this industry). This is a test post though -- I unsubscribed a while back- at least I tried. If it turns out to be like a failed suicide attempt I have to

Re: NFPA 13 prior to 1969 edition

Thanks Scott. Yes, that does help zero in on when it went from open to closed sprinklers. I've recently modeled activation with and without a draft stop for 3,6,9,12,15, and 18 inch deflector distance, for 135F, 155F, 175F, and 200F Sprinklers 9" from edge of opening splitting the difference

Re: [EXTERNAL] NFPA 13 prior to 1969 edition

Curiosity Kyle- I'm still stuck in last week, tweaking the vertical opening discussion, which, I must say, you had an excellent take on. Thanks, Brad. Quoting "Kyle.Montgomery" : Is this just for curiosity, or do you have a project using pre-1969 version of the

Re: Exterior Play Area

It dosent say those things because it's outside the building Steve. It's a shade structure, like you meant. Sprinklers would just make a big mess. Open on three sides and non-comb means no life safety issue and if that's where it starts it won't get inside before the FD gets there. These

Re: Exterior Play Area

In Kansas we call it a 'carport', or if it is only open on the front, a 'lean-to'. I will admit though, ~2000 s.f. of this is kind of scary. Good thing you excluded it John (hopefully you had it figured but it was just the dif between 20 and 25% profit. b. Quoting Bruce Verhei

Re: Exterior Play Area

I vote no sprinklers required -- open and noncombustible- the rockinghorse on a spring is like a newspaper machine - there will always be just one of them- not one today and twelve tomorrow. Brad. Quoting Steve Leyton : 8.15.7.5. From: Sprinklerforum

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Exterior Play Area

I say when it gets to 2550 kW, stand back about 5 feet with a six foot stick and toast some marshmallows Quoting "Mark.Phelps" : One of the issues considered for sprinklers or not is in the egress and exiting. In a freestanding building with no exterior walls, egress

Re: Exterior Play Area

Travis, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" ~john lennon~ . Quoting Travis Mack : We need a LIKE button for emails. So many times people get lost debating NFPA 13 criteria when the answer is quite clear in the building code. Travis Mack,

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Exterior Play Area

I doubt this is a 20 ft wide by 100 foot projection John but if it was you could stub out ten or twelve light hazard dry sidewalls off the wet system inside -- 2-3 grand? to placate yourself, the ahj, and the lawyers if it all went south some day? ?B. Quoting John Irwin

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Exterior Play Area

Actually, this is all i would do anyway, even if it was 40x50-- I'd call it "exposure protection" B Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: I doubt this is a 20 ft wide by 100 foot projection John but if it was you could stub out ten or twelve light hazard dry sidewalls off the wet system

NFPA 13 prior to 1969 edition

Does anyone have access to 13 where the water curtain detail still required open sprinklers (deluge)? I'm curious if the draft stop is required. Besides smoke protecting the opening it occurred to me the other day the draft stop would help form a 'wall of water' by blocking ~9 gpm, making

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

That paints a perfect motion picture Roland. So we space for 8ft end to end, not eave to peak. On the off chance the channels run end to end it might be a good idea to go 8 eave to peak too? I've modeled attic type head discharge patterns but it never occurred to me to try and gain a better

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Wood Shop Classroom Classification of Hazard

That sounds like something Sales would say Joseph, not an AHJ, TC member, or PE. It's only 3000 sf so you could quickly set-up the most economical configurations for both LH and OHII, give it to Sales and ask them which one they think you will be eventually be field checking and

Re: Height of overhanging Eaves/canopies

I'm pretty eat up Ron and Steve I know. Example -- I'm surrounded by daughters and son and grandkids and we are all acting normal (not a one of them is a Sprink)-- I slip away for a ten-twenty minute break and all i see is flame and smoke and sprinkler spray. Brad Quoting Ron Greenman

Re: Height of overhanging Eaves/canopies

If there is a code about it it might adress the case where a room fire busts the windows out, looking for fresh air, starts raging up the side and is on say the 11th floor of a building with combustible eaves at the 12th floor level. Nothing wrong with an ahj whom would rather be safe than

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

It was pointed out to me off forum the literature cleary shows back to back cannot be used when the channels are running end to end. (Thanks again Ed). So, should the same '8 foot rule' be applied for parallel to the slope when the channels run end to end? Thanks, Brad Quoting

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

Thanks Cecil. I just know what I've read; Back to backs stared out as previously listed extended coverage quick response -- they just modified the deflector for three different angles. They Did do activation tests though for things like, "if the fire is directly below the peak will back to

Re: Sprinklers doing their job!

say what Quoting NSFD : it would be easier to just share the link without the hand wringing and giving away your political leanings. LOL. Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

What a time that must have been to be alive Cecil!. I've read for changes in full scale burns regarding height they raised and lowered the floor because that was only one thing to move and re-run. Is that true? Brad Quoting Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo : Yo

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

Thanks for reply Todd. If somebody asked me, "should the 8' rule be applied for parallel to the slope when the channels run end to end" I would have to say, "no, because the book don't tell me so". I gotta be able to cite numbers to myself though so I'll know in about a week whether or not

Re: Perpendicular to Slope / Attic

I was glancing through the literature of one of the Specialty Attic Sprinkler makers (back-back at the peak) and none of the plan views shows which way the channels were running so the delay in activation for the rare case of channels running end to end can be neglected, apparently. The

Re: Vertical Opening

Quoting JD Gamble : "... a draft stop is not a viable solution due to head room "... my fear is these things being left open in a fire situation". When I got into fire modeling 12 years ago I did an activation comparison with and without a draft stop. I was

Re: concealed space less than 6" deep

nothing wrong- with green stuff flying out of a sprinks head bud i mean bob and ben-jam'n, i hope you know what to do now (i think 'reasonable degree of protection'... is in every ED). I know if I ever get another Motel 6 I will ask myself, "is this a 4 sprk calc or an 8 sprk calc?" Brad

Re: Unsubscribe

Dear Thom, if you have not already, please don't pull the trigger-- according to Roland, if you do it right the process is fully automatic! I can't understand, after such a nice post, and being in your position now, why you want to call it quits. . Quoting Thom Heller :

Re: Vertical Opening

Is the opening required to be 'protected' from a building code standpoint? If it is, Then you look at the sprinkler rules, such as less than 1000 s.f. I hope this makes sense. Brad. Quoting JD Gamble : I have a situation where we have 900sq.ft. vertical opening

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

The vertical rules say when using sprinklers as the alternative something something -I'm away from my desk (so far away at home in bed). Confirm it! It's why I said, "I hope this makes sense" Brad. Quoting JD Gamble : Does that mean that the vertical rules don't

Re: Vertical Opening [EXTERNAL]

You should probably confirm it with every one J.D. but it seems to me if separation (protection, enclosure) is not required there would be no reason to use sprinklers as an alernative for providing that separation. It's been ten years since I last designed, calcd, and listed a water

Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Existing 3/4" outlets

Kyle, if there is even a whiff of Residential about the occupancy the listed res should be used because, along with the quick response, res heads have a superior pattern, wetting not only the floor but high up on the walls too (curtains, bookshelves, the curio cabinets full of Russian

Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Existing 3/4" outlets

I just know from reading about the earliest development of Residential sprks it was recognized how important it was to get spray high up on the wall. So 'superior pattern for residential' and 'far superior level of protection for commercial' are different pages of the same book. (and i

Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Existing 3/4" outlets

It's a head scratcher for sure. One of those Occupancy Classifications that's hard to pin down with just words, then apply all the rules that go along with that vagueness. B. Quoting "Kyle.Montgomery" : Well, it does give us something to think about. I wonder,

Re: [EXTERNAL] C?

The lab would not even need a biologist on staff Vince! They couldn't tell you what the C Factor was, but if they could measure the absolute roughness you could take it from there. I like Mark's idea of a mechanical tee coupon - send them that and they can measure the height/depth of the

Re: Calc' terminology

I think the words clean and dirty just refers to the density Steve, which you need to know to get from PSI to feet of head. 13 uses 62.4 lbs/ft^3 (it's not blatant, but I figured it out by rearanging other rules). Define 'algorithm'-- i don't see it in chapter 3... ;) B Quoting Steve Leyton

Re: Existing 3/4" outlets

I only found one maker of UPRIGHT RESIDENTIAL. I didn't see the npt, but K4.9 so probably not 3/4. Would a 3/4x0-2 sprig w/ 3/4x1/2 RC be legal? Brad. Quoting Matt Grise : If the system was previously able to provide OH2, is it a problem to have over discharge? Could you

Re: Underground & Stub-In Requirements

For some reason in Kansas anyway 4" is min. if no hydrant on it-- 6" if it supplies a hydrant too, as far as i remember. Brad. ps- does it really take the moderator over one week to approve an 'unsubscribe' nowadays? Quoting "Westbrook, Jay" : See the

Re: Underground & Stub-In Requirements

Thank you Steve. (suddenly i feel alive again!) Brad-- . Quoting Steve Leyton : If you unsubscribed because you thought you were the cause of the phishing advisory, I'm pretty sure it wasn't you. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum

Egress Window Protection

Fire Escape probably no longer required with new 13R anyway. Brad. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: Sprinklers near Conduit runs Obstruction?

'Sweet and Donaldson 401 K'. It might have been Don Becker who dubbed them "Donkey Dicks". I know he advocated them to owners saying occupants would feel safer having no doubt the place was sprinklered. Brad Quoting Jerry Van Kolken : I thought I did space to the right equipment. I got the

Re: Acceptance testing at working pressure

Mike, I would not infer 2 hours period based on the definition of hydrostatic test in chapter three-- specified pressure for specified time. For new it is 200 psi/2hrs. For remodel it is working psi/not specified. Disclaimer: This is me talking. :) Brad Quoting Mike B Morey :

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