Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move "smoking" tag to active status

On 21.03.2015 01:54, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > Any objection to moving: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking > because it is heavily used and obviously well established. I object. The feature page should document actual usage, and actual usage differs from proposed usage. sm

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 20.03.2015 00:48, Warin wrote: > On 20/03/2015 9:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andy Mabbett > > wrote: >> >> amenity=fuel >> fuel=bottled >> >> >> Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. T

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

OSM is a very large community with much accumulated knowledge and skill - it's bound to be quite conservative, and for good reason. The challenge is to allow experimental innovations to breathe without disrupting the community. We'll never be able to organise a vote (ha!) to switch to loomio all at

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: > It is amazing to see how few people participate in this discussion and >> vote compared to the number of mappers. >> > > STOP USING MAILINGLISTS!!! > > Those things might be nice for some tech savy people, but for everybody > else it's just a

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree that a 'forum' is far better at engaging a community ... keeps > topics more organised as replies are localised (that are no isolated > branches for instance), avoids the 'digest mode' problem, some even have a > syste

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I agree that a 'forum' is far better at engaging a community ... keeps >> topics more organised as replies are localised (that are no isolated >> branches for instan

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

On 2015-03-23 01:18, Dave Swarthout wrote : > I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current > system. It is an anachronism! > > My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate > thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 4:23 AM, Kotya Karapetyan wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: > >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I agree that a 'forum' is far better at engaging a community ... keeps >>> topics more organise

Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move "smoking" tag to active status

2015-03-22 14:00 GMT+01:00 fly : > +1 but please copy and archive the proposal +1, rather than "(User moved page Proposed features/Smoking to Tag:smoking) (undo)" the Tag definition page should be a new page, referring the proposal page (e.g. in the "see also" section, or maybe a dedicated "pro

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

2015-03-23 10:43 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson : > The mailing lists are moderated. they are moderately moderated, you have to act in a very asocial way to risk moderation, unless it's the accessibility list, maybe ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing lis

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). This is not the way to go. An amenity is something the *general public* might like or use or want to visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small quan

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

I can't imagine that people who are able to provide mapping input for OSM are not able to work with forums etc. Moderation is something you have to agree upon before. The OSM community can decide not to moderate. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 10:53 AM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > 2015-03-23 10:43 GM

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

+5 I fully agree with Dave! We need a clear differentiation between regular filling stations with large underground containers and the shops that sell a few liters of diesel of which you may hope that it isn't polluted and doesn't contain water. When I travel in countries like Malawi or Ethiopia I

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

2015-03-23 10:50 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer : > accessibility sorry, /s/accessibility/diversity/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-23 11:02 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout : > I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). > > > This is not the way to go. > > An amenity is something the *general public* might like or use or want to > visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small > quantitie

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

I have renamed "commercial" to "standard" as it is the most common campground and can include campgrounds that have all facilities of a privately run campground, but are run by a government body (like the South African parks). I also added details to the description of this category of campground (

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

2015-03-20 21:59 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum : > I have updated the proposal > with > the feedback as much as possible. > Appearantly there are already people using this key following a different scheme, (looks as if they used it

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

2015-03-23 13:02 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer : > I don't like the idea that a "designated" camp site has to be > non-commercial, I'd rather tag that aspect with the "fee" key. to explain a bit more: we use "designated" in other parts of our tagging (access) as a stronger "yes" (i.e. signposte

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

Ah, Jan, you added too many conditions! The majority of campgrounds United States parks are not guarded, and almost never fully staffed. The larger parks have someone at the gate to collect money, but they do not "guard" the campers Most of the parks in Alaska work on the honor system: uoip ut your

Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move "smoking" tag to active status

Am 23.03.2015 um 08:35 schrieb Friedrich Volkmann: > On 21.03.2015 01:54, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: >> Any objection to moving: >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking >> because it is heavily used and obviously well established. You are right my "+1" was to fast. > I object. T

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Am 23.03.2015 um 07:02 schrieb johnw: > >> On Mar 20, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> You can change it .. or make proposals here. Just don't change the existing >> values and it should be fine. >> I'd think you'd be adding heating oils, propane and kerosene. > > >

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 23.03.2015 11:02, Dave Swarthout wrote: > An amenity is something the /general public/ might like or use or want to > visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small > quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle drivers. That's why the general public might

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

Am 23.03.2015 um 09:53 schrieb Paul Johnson: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: > >> It is amazing to see how few people participate in this discussion and >>> vote compared to the number of mappers. >>> >> >> STOP USING MAILINGLISTS!!! >> >> Those things might be nice for som

Re: [Tagging] Deleting private objects in private spaces

Am 22.03.2015 um 23:11 schrieb Warin: > On 23/03/2015 1:20 AM, fly wrote: >> Am 17.03.2015 um 07:26 schrieb John Willis: >>> There was a big bruhaha about any mappers mapping Israeli military >>> installations. They were deleting everything and leaving notes not to >>> map things on that location,

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather > a > shop=car_parts. > 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailin

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but rather > a > shop=car_parts. > I'd prefer shop=pharmacy, dispensing=no ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreet

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 23.03.2015 14:50, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: amenity=fuel fuel=bottled Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station. That's fine, because selling fuel is what makes it a fuel station. You have missed the point of this thread. The world is not perfect. ame

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 22.03.2015 20:29, fly wrote: some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use these as their brand, see e.g. here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen So it is a brand. Maybe just small, but a brand of that association of fuel stations. not b

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 23.03.2015 15:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2015-03-23 14:55 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann >: > > Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but > rather a > shop=car_parts. > > > > 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is b

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Sorry, fuel is not a car_part. And these small fuel shops are not an amenity. Stalemate. @Fly - these places are operated by private individuals out of the front of their homes primarily. It's typically a small shed with a large window thru which the fuel is either pumped or handed over in repurp

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss : > The wiki describes "operator=independent" as "he value has been used when > exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a > small independent firm." > Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for. > > http://wiki.openstr

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

I don't object to the operator=independent tag. That's an okay addition to the scenario. However, I do object to tagging these things as amenities. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote: > Sorry, fuel is not a car_part. And these small fuel shops are not an > amenity. > > Stalema

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-23 15:30 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > > 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. > > The definition says: "A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor > oil, car chemicals, etc." > > That fits perfectly. > can you expand? Someone sitting roadside s

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Am 23.03.2015 um 15:33 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: > 2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss : > >> The wiki describes "operator=independent" as "he value has been used when >> exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they are a >> small independent firm." >> Sounds like tha

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 4:23 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2015-03-23 11:02 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout : >>> I agree with amenity=fuel + a subtag like these (if needed). >> >> This is not the way to go. >> >> An amenity is something the general public might like or use or want to >> visit. These

Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move "smoking" tag to active status

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > I object. The feature page should document actual usage, and actual usage > differs from proposed usage. smoking=outside is the second most common > value > and 15x more abundant than the proposed smoking:outside=yes. If you look, I

Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move "smoking" tag to active status

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:smoking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:smoking ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a comment but appears I have done something wrong because it just does not work for me. I do not have a Google account and my Virgin email is unacceptable. So I cannot comment. Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as vis

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

I don't know if I need to say this, but Ralph, Andre, please could you send report your problems to the loomio people? You do that here: https://github.com/loomio/loomio/issues Dan 2015-03-23 16:42 GMT+00:00 AYTOUN RALPH : > Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a commen

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

Dave, Wouldn't such campsites belong to cat. 2? On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 1:28 PM Dave Swarthout wrote: > Ah, Jan, you added too many conditions! The majority of campgrounds United > States parks are not guarded, and almost never fully staffed. The larger > parks have someone at the gate to colle

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

Martin, I agree with the proposal to have a different main tag for informal sites; something like tourism=wild_camp. I guess some kind of RV/trekking attribute would work as well, What we now are looking for is the proper distinction between 1, 2 and 4. It should be one attribute key to distinguis

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. > > The definition says: "A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor > oil, car chemicals, etc." > > That fits perfectly. > > can you expand? Someone

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:42 PM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote: > Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a comment > but appears I have done something wrong because it just does not work for > me. I do not have a Google account and my Virgin email is unacceptable. > > So I cannot co

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

> > >> Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as visual arguments to >> support your reasoning? >> >> > Doesn't seems to be possible. > I was too quick. It *is* possible. Here is an example. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

Now I am missing the "like" link :) We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to a different platform. However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very good alternative rather than a marginally better option first. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:40 AM,

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

> > I was *too* quick. Here is an example: > https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

Thanks Kotya, Being able to include pictures, etc, is at least is a great positive. I still need to sort out what has happened to stop me from signing up for the group. If this is going to be a common problem then it may discourage some from getting involved. Or we need to give more accurate sign

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

The next question is The results of the graph are based on the response of the person when they post their comment. This affects the result of the pie chart because it starts to clock up how people feel before all the comments for and against have been posted. Those later arguments could affec

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

Yes they can. Probably best to try it out - sorry that you're stuck outside of it at the moment! 2015-03-23 18:36 GMT+00:00 AYTOUN RALPH : > The next question is > > The results of the graph are based on the response of the person when they > post their comment. This affects the result of the

Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 19:07 +0100, Kotya Karapetyan wrote: > We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people > to a different platform. I think its better than the email list. For a number of reasons. And while the list also wins a couple of points, overall, Loomio is bette

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:48 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > > On 23.03.2015 15:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >>> 2 liters of fuel are as much car_parts as a bakery is bicycle_parts. >> >>The definition says: "A place selling auto parts, auto accessories, motor >>oi

Re: [Tagging] Historic tower

Wouldn't it make much more sense to use start_date for the starting date, and completion_date for the completion date? On March 22, 2015 10:27:00 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > > > Am 22.03.2015 um 15:39 schrieb fly : > > > > but how to handle buildings which where finished af

Re: [Tagging] Accepted or rejected?

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 15:04 +0100, fly wrote: > as long as there is no alternative for offline support we need email. Fly, once registered as a Loomio user, you can still choose to receive and respond to email, maybe without ever actually logging into the Loomio interface again (?). > Please als

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 19:12 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote: > The majority of campgrounds United States parks are not guarded, Agree, "guarded" is not a very friendly word ! > and almost never fully staffed. yes, "fully staffed" implies 24/7 or thereabouts. We need to include parks where some supe

Re: [Tagging] Historic tower

start_date ? start of planning?, construction? occupation? completion of planning? construction? occupation? built_data ... is fairly simple. I like simple and plain. It would need more words for structures that have several 'additions', 'refurbishments', etc .. but the meaning is more apparen

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

Just to make sure we are all singing from the same hymn book, here is a table summarising the differences between these different camp sites. Sorry if you are not using fixed spacing fonts, you should ! StandardDesignated Trekking Informal Fee Significant No/Nominal ?

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

Many questions, many answers... First: >My point might be that with so many factors, we are unlikely to see a >100% of campgrounds to fit into their category flawlessly every time. >Thus words like "rarely" and "usually". +1 on that You probably get hot showers in the bigger U.S. campgrounds, tho

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

I agree completely with what John said in the previous reply. Repeat: a fuel shop is not a car_parts shop. The "etc." was probably added there as a catch all to include tools specific to cars or whatever but it definitely, certainly does not include petrol. Dave On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 4:37 AM,

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Also, Bryce makes this point, a valid point I must add: These stands are also far more volatile than a proper fuel station. And once they cease business very hard to un-map. That's true but it's also true of many other objects. Mapping the world is a dynamic endeavor because things change: roads

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2015, at 10:22 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote: > > n the 5 years I've been motorcycling around Thailand I'm seeing more and more > of these. But the other type, the shops we're working with now, will likely > be around for many years. They should be mapped in some

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

> On Mar 24, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote: > > The "etc." was probably added there as a catch all to include tools specific > to cars or whatever but it definitely, certainly does not include petrol. Car stores sell all the aftermarket stuff for cars (besides tools and parts) int

[Tagging] New Key:indoor wiki page

Tagging list folks may wish to track or comment on: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:indoor ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

OK, I'm struggling. I started answering Dave S's stuff (below) and realised I was really arguing away the who catagory approach. Sigh. Are we better saying - tourism=camp_site toilets=yes sanitary_dump_station=yes amenity=showers fee=yes tourism=camp_site toilets=no sanitary_dump_station=no fee

Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

> > How does the tagging differ from an unstaffed filling station where you > enter your credit card and fill up the tank of your car yourself 24/7 like > I seem them all over the place in the Netherlands? In the situation you > describe I really prefer shop=*. > Regards, Jan > > At these places

Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

I think the table is basically correct. I added showers, amended the pitches and added access hours. In Europe it is very common that no pitches are defined. Staffing=yes means that during at least defined period of the day (say 7:00-10:00 and 16:00-20:00). Usually you are not able to register beyo