At 1:07 PM -0700 4/23/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)
Surprise, surprise.
But to their defense, they have nothing else to go on but what can be
put to paper or provided by a test and therein lies the problem. They
are hired to judge, but don't have
At 12:38 PM -0700 4/23/08, Kristina Anderson wrote:
Mike -- 99.9% of the people posting on this list do have a university
degree, from what I have seen! A lot of them have MS or PhDs, even.
But, a 10- or 20-year old degree doesn't prove anything when it comes
to current technology. A certifica
So, everyone knows what I think of this thread and the one preceding
it regarding testing and such. I won't go there.
However, now that some specs have been laid as to what some employers
want and some ideas for the implementation, I challenge everyone (or
anyone interested) to put some numbers a
Now this roll up (redisplayed below) from Time Lieberman is excellent
and elegantly captures what a real PHP+ programmer would be. And in
reality and based on my own experience too, this skill set is exactly
what is most often needed and even silently tacitly expected when you
step into an advanced
Hello Kristina,
> Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)
HA! I'll second, third and fourth that one! I have seen many who
thought they were ... LOL
--
Best regards,
mikeszmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
New York P
Really hope the questions about Left Outer Joins using COALESCE and how
to get mail() to work on a Windows box aren't on the cert test??
Or I'm doo doo. :)
PS I'm not sure how to say "fogged a mirror" in Latin but we can look
it up!
> on 2008-04-23 17:25 Peter Sawczynec said the following:
> >
on 2008-04-23 17:25 Peter Sawczynec said the following:
I believe the most beneficial PHP+ cert that we can strive for would be
more on par with a Cisco cert. An acknowledged, industry heavy weight,
Note that the lower-level Cisco certs (i.e. everything but the CCIE or
its equivalent) now have
This is sillyness in my opinion. All certs are fatally flawed. As
soon as you write a good test, someone writes a better study guide. I
personally think the latest Zend test would be hard to improve upon.
If you think you can do better than Zend, Microsoft, et al, I think
you are kidding yoursel
] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:17 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Hi gang:
It would be nice to be a certified programmer -- I'm certified in
other professions and it helps som
PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:09 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re[2]: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
No matter how many certificates you stack on top of each other from
Manhattan to the Moon, it STILL does not equate to a BScs degree. I
see lots of
Mike --
I passed on the opportunity to take the Microsoft certs (back in my
ASP/VB days). I thought the questions were assinine because the tests
had nothing to do with real world programming tasks and were more rote
memorization of factoids. Also I was convinced that those testing
centers h
I'd have to agree 100% that "in the trenches" experience and a track
record of being paid to write solid code for many years is worth way
more than any piece of paper, whether it be degree or cert or whatnot.
Unfortunately, there are few geniuses in HR :)
-Kristina
>
> > Some sound advice, G
Hello Kristina,
You are right.
> --Kristina (B.A., 1985) :)
My B.A. was in 1986.
I am still a little suspicious about certification programs in general
from what I have encountered as a Software Engineering manager even when
I was at Microsoft. I frequently interviewed people with certification
Some sound advice, GET THE DEGREE! When push comes to shove that is
what give you credibility not some pie in the sky marketing hype that
promises the moon and delivers chopped liver.
You make that sound so easy. But then again, I'm not one of the
ones pushing for certification but inst
Mike -- 99.9% of the people posting on this list do have a university
degree, from what I have seen! A lot of them have MS or PhDs, even.
But, a 10- or 20-year old degree doesn't prove anything when it comes
to current technology. A certification in current technology proves
that you are know
No matter how many certificates you stack on top of each other from
Manhattan to the Moon, it STILL does not equate to a BScs degree. I
see lots of people here bitterly complaining about legitimacy and yet
the avoid the very thing that gives them instant credibility, the
Degree.
My very first expe
on 2008-04-23 13:16 tedd said the following:
However, the problem as I see is two-fold:
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
Not so obvious; the various flavors of BSD unix have a large
volunteer community going for BSD Unix certification, and they've
only now starting to come to
At 1:42 PM -0400 4/23/08, Urb LeJeune wrote:
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound
like a broken record but to me
programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.
No, you took the word obvio
On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Urb LeJeune wrote:
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound
like a broken record but to me
programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.
I would agree. I have
on 2008-04-23 13:16 tedd said the following:
However, the problem as I see is two-fold:
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
Not so obvious; the various flavors of BSD unix have a large volunteer
community going for BSD Unix certification, and they've only now
starting to come to
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
To you is obvious, to me not so obvious :-) I know I sound
like a broken record but to me
programming is not about syntax it's about logic and problem solving.
Many years ago Edsger Dijkstr, one of the giants of computer
sci
Hi gang:
It would be nice to be a certified programmer -- I'm certified in
other professions and it helps somewhat.
However, the problem as I see is two-fold:
1. What's required to become certified (obvious);
2. What are the qualifications of the governing body and its
industry's support (n
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Ben Sgro wrote:
> We've agreed on the Zend Framework, the zend modules and coding style
I dont think we should favor one framework over another.
--
Aj.
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Peter Sawczynec wrote:
[...]
Most businesses/new processes brought about through fresh initiative are
just brought together as best as can be done right now while the iron is
hot ...
Many business profess that they want to have people who can think
'outside of the box'
and yet they cling to a '
business interview being able to say "yes, I took
the cert and passed" than not.
Peter
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of David Krings
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:41 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing
nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
[...]
> And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user
group
> member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
> credentials/resume.
>
Is being Zend certified (
So,
"recognized user group member"
And what does this actually mean?
Active on a mailing list? Shows up at meetings? Knows the organizer
of the group? Pays dues?
As the founder and past president of LIPHP I can say that this is hard
to validate. Sure, there are people in the group and on th
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
d) we have a handful of large free PHP user groups and these groups, say
the top 10, should be formally recognized, and one should be expected to
belong to one of these groups.
I understand the motivation, but I don't think mandating a membership in a
club is helpful. An
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
I believe that all of the informal industry-standard acknowledgements
and accolades that you call for in your note have already been
informally applied to all the entities that you mention and that this
informal approved/sanctioned condition has existed for years for PEAR,
grammers like realtors,
> financial planners should have an association approved path and tool
set
> that ultimately will have more knowable and strongly negotiable pay
> scale. Peter
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
[EMAIL PROTECTE
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
[...]
And that a programmer who has Zend cert. and is a recognized user group
member can use the status of PHP+ user/programmer on their
credentials/resume.
Is being Zend certified (alone) a big help?
--
T. Gales & Associates
'Helping People Connect with Technology'
independent entity or it would probably have appeared
by now. Peter
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Scott Mattocks
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:47 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and
instruments
> already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and
application
> of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons aro
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
on hand.
Instead of trying to force a few applications
-regulating bodies. Peter
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rolan Yang
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:08 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> So w
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Hello Peter/et all,
I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing
since the "OT Webmaster Test" thread started.
Some kind of move like this would surely he
Peter Sawczynec wrote:
So what would be wrong if we just agreed as a professional group to use
these above entities as our bedrock standards. We use the Zend cert, the
Zend IDE/framework and officially sanction Php.net and
Sourceforge.net/PEAR as the defacto outlets of help/reference and code.
ECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Sgro
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:02 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] About Formalizing an Enterprise PHP and the
PHP+Developer
Hello Peter/et all,
I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing
sin
Hello Peter/et all,
I agree with a lot of this. I've been thinking about the same thing
since the "OT Webmaster Test" thread started.
Some kind of move like this would surely help increase the quality of
software and allow those
new to a project to become productive more quickly.
This is ba
It seems we (I mean PHP programmers) have all the tools and instruments
already at our fingertips for more formalizing the study and application
of PHP, we'd just have to agree to ring our wagons around what we've got
on hand.
For example:
a) we have the very large and well-recognized repository
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