[OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-11 Thread Allan Mustard 
I apologize if this is a duplicate, but I received notices from Google
Mail that the message below sent to both osmf-talk and talk was not
delivered "because the address couldn't be found, or is unable to
receive mail."  I am therefore retransmitting the message using my home
email address.  apm

To the OSM and OSMF communities:

I convey the following information on behalf of the Board of
Directors of the OpenStreetMap Foundation.

An outcome of the current controversy on the osmf-talk mailing list
over misogynistic language is a decision by the Board as follows:

> The Board will find partners to help instate a moderator team for
> the OSMF-talk and talk mailing lists. These moderators need to
> have the trust of the community subject to the moderation (consent
> of the governed) by some kind of approval mechanism. This
> moderator team will start to work on enforcing the current
> Etiquette guidelines as soon as possible. We will also start work
> on updating/replacing our Etiquette rules, which must focus on
> balancing all participants' interests.

We have asked the Local Chapters and Communities Working Group
(LCCWG ) to take the lead on this and to work with signatories of
the open letter to the Board [1] as well as members of the Diversity
and Inclusion Special Committee to produce proposals for the Board
to consider at its January meeting.  The LCCWG has accepted this
task.  This issue will be on the agenda of the January meeting of
the Board of Directors, exact time and date yet to be determined,
though as is customary it will be posted to the Foundation's website
well in advance.

Members of the OSM community are, as always, welcome to share their
opinions and any relevant information on this matter, either
publicly via osmf-talk, or privately in direct communications to the
LCCWG.  I feel compelled to remind all members of the community that
a Code of Etiquette [2] has existed since June 2011 and shall be
observed by all community members.

Very best  regards to all,
apm

[1]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?ts=5fd11436#heading=h.ccgtgjykcfgh


[2] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette


---
/Allan Mustard, Chairperson/
/Board of Directors/
/OpenStreetMap Foundation/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Heather Leson 
Thank you to the board for listening to our appeal.

I look forward to collaborating on the next steps.

Heather

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 04:57 Allan Mustard, 
wrote:

> To the OSM and OSMF communities:
>
> I convey the following information on behalf of the Board of Directors of
> the OpenStreetMap Foundation.
>
> An outcome of the current controversy on the osmf-talk mailing list over
> misogynistic language is a decision by the Board as follows:
>
> The Board will find partners to help instate a moderator team for the
> OSMF-talk and talk mailing lists. These moderators need to have the trust
> of the community subject to the moderation (consent of the governed) by
> some kind of approval mechanism. This moderator team will start to work
> on enforcing the current Etiquette guidelines as soon as possible. We will
> also start work on updating/replacing our Etiquette rules, which must focus
> on balancing all participants' interests.
>
> We have asked the Local Chapters and Communities Working Group (LCCWG ) to
> take the lead on this and to work with signatories of the open letter to
> the Board [1] as well as members of the Diversity and Inclusion Special
> Committee to produce proposals for the Board to consider at its January
> meeting.  The LCCWG has accepted this task.  This issue will be on the
> agenda of the January meeting of the Board of Directors, exact time and
> date yet to be determined, though as is customary it will be posted to the
> Foundation's website well in advance.
>
> Members of the OSM community are, as always, welcome to share their
> opinions and any relevant information on this matter, either publicly via
> osmf-talk, or privately in direct communications to the LCCWG.  I feel
> compelled to remind all members of the community that a Code of Etiquette
> [2] has existed since June 2011 and shall be observed by all community
> members.
>
> Very best  regards to all,
> apm
>
> [1]
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?ts=5fd11436#heading=h.ccgtgjykcfgh
> [2] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette
> ---
> *Allan Mustard, Chairperson*
> *Board of Directors*
> *OpenStreetMap Foundation*
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Blake Girardot 
On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 7:54 AM Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> Blake Girardot wrote:
> > I will just point out a common pattern:
>
> Céline posted an eloquent opening statement that talks about "this dominant 
> profile" and the thread has, true to form, largely descended into the same 
> dominant profile arguing and "just pointing out" things.
>
> It might therefore be incumbent on us all to shut up and let women be heard. 
> Their experiences do not need to be mediated through our mansplaining.
>
> In that spirit I'll post no more on this.

That is very thoughtful of you, I appreciate your point of view.

I will instead not let the demands of the loudest folks fall on the
folks most affected by their impacts.

I have a responsibility to speak up from my white male western
position of privilege. This thread is the very definition of
"systemic" issues. It is a huge time and emotional tax on people to
deal with the constant questioning and demands for proof and
disagreement, questioning, etc. By an onslaught of more bold, and free
time and other advantaged folks and people who feel everyone should
hear them on every single issue constantly. Well, hear someone else
for a moment please.

That is time the letter writers have to spend not doing whatever they
want. I am so sorry it always falls on those affected, I do what I can
to be a meaningful al.

And if no one answers people do not recognize the gaslighting and
discouraging tactics, intentionally used or accidentally used.

I will continue to point that out to those who do not understand it. I
do not need to point out a darn thing to the folks who signed the
letter, they pointed it out to me and I appreciate it.

Feedback from folks who signed the Call for action is welcome :)

Best wishes,
Blake






> Richard
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-- 

Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Richard Fairhurst 
Blake Girardot wrote:
> I will just point out a common pattern:

Céline posted an eloquent opening statement that talks about "this dominant 
profile" and the thread has, true to form, largely descended into the same 
dominant profile arguing and "just pointing out" things.

It might therefore be incumbent on us all to shut up and let women be heard. 
Their experiences do not need to be mediated through our mansplaining.

In that spirit I'll post no more on this.

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Blake Girardot 
On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 5:22 AM Thomas Barris via osmf-talk
 wrote:
> Why do you think such an OSM project as you want it is desirable for the 
> majority of the community? I have signed up to this project to collect and 
> share free geodata.  I am not in favour of using OSM(F) for distributing the 
> questionable moral standards of a minority - and I don't mean minority in 
> terms of gender, religion or color. If you have issues to deal with the way 
> other cultures and communities express opinions, including exaggerations, 
> direct speech and sometimes even discuss emotionally beyond the borders, you 
> should not join an international project imho. Frederik's statement in 
> question has nothing to do with diversity. He did not imply that gender, sex, 
> relegion etc has something to do with the point he made. If you think his 
> tone wasn't appropriate, just tell him and probably many will support you in 
> this judgement.

I will just point out a common pattern:

1. Someone speaks up about their experiences and how they and their
colleagues feel we have inclusion issues and propose changes.
2. There is an unanswerable flood of emails by a few, but loud folks
disagreeing and demanding proof, etc. Good for them I guess? Everyone
should feel so confident sharing their very important views.
3. More folks feel drowned out, unheard, afraid to speak up, discouraged
4. The very few use the lack of other voices as proof "the community
does not want this"

Time to find a way to break this cycle.

Best wishes,
Blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Lukasz Kruk 
I have little new to offer that hasn't been posted in this thread before,
but would like to say that singling out Frederik and his supposedly
"dehumanizing message" as an offensive catalyst for a call to action? Not
cool.

I don't want to contribute to a cycle of outrage (though in some eyes I
probably just have), so thank you if you remember: almost nobody is evil.

Lukasz

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 22:00, Clay Smalley  wrote:

> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>
> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
> OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
> towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
> evidence of this.
>
> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman
> what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what
> offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you
> by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will
> never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to
> the experts.
>
> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
> feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
> temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
> Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>
> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
> there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
> conduct yesterday.
>
> -Clay (they/them)
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody
>> I hope you are all well
>>
>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
>> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>> diversity.
>>
>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> On behalf of the signatories
>> Best regards
>>
>> Céline Jacquin
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>>
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>


-- 
pozdrawiam - kind regards - cumprimentos - mfg
Łukasz Kruk
http://lukaszkruk.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-10 Thread Heather Leson 
Good morning

As Celine mentioned, we are a coalition of people who want change in OSMF
and OSM. Our statement clearly states that we are willing to work with OSMF
(working groups, board, membership) and OSM (community, project and
network). This means collaboration with the local chapters and community
working group as well as building on the diversity statement made by the
board this year.  Many of you have seen a few of us state this before in
all the forums. Now is the time to listen and meet us half way.

You will note that many of the people who signed do not post on the OMSF
mailing list for fear of targeting. So, please consider why we want change.

On being a woman - every day we have to ask (demand) and show for our
rights to be equal. Every day we have to worry about sexualized actions
and/or comments. Some of us have been through horrible experiences and
others just want to never talk about gender again. So why do we bring it
up? We bring it up because we see it, we feel it and we experience it. What
I ask for you all is to spend a day talking with women in your lives.  We
just want to 'be' too, but the reason we speak up is because being called
derisive terms makes us not feel like this is a safe place. As such, we ask
to, as one person stated - focus on the issues, not the people. But, we
will focus on people and gender until we don't have to point out
discrepancies.

For Frederik - yes, you said a word that is sexualized and fairly violent
for many of us. Honestly, we have been catcalled and treated like objects
for years. Let's do better. I think you will too. Yes, your name is listed
there but only because it was 'the this time story' - meaning, yet another
reason why people leave OSM and or feel like they cannot participate. Words
matter. Tone Matters. We matter. I appreciate your passion for the project,
but please don't equate our passion for change as about you alone. This
document was written by many people. I, for one, don't 'hate' here.  We are
just trying to open up this conversation, no matter how raw it is for all
of us.

For comments about Frederik's name in the statement. I added a comment to
the statement document to consider if it should be a footnote, but to
recognize the origins of this statement and coalition "There were requests
on the OSMF mailing list to remove names from the statements. While this
was a trigger, perhaps this could go as a footnote?"

Mateusz Konieczny - your point about "citizens" is well noted. I added a
comment to consider editing this. "there was a comment on the OSMF mailing
list that not all people who benefit from OSM are citizens of a country
.This is very true especially with migrants and displaced people."

For John Whelan - "The danger in Celine's confrontational approach is we
throw the baby out with the dish water."

We are all here with her asking for change. We want OSM to be ok for us to
read and post to the list without being asked about babies and household
chores.

For Clay - this is why we all jointly wrote the note to stand together and
post as a group.

For Jean-Marc - thank you for considering the middle way and seeking to
listen and understand.

We were all fairly taken aback by his comments. The point is - we cannot
consistently keep saying there are issues and not do more. This was indeed
a trigger point. But let's focus on the bigger picture.

Let's work together to find a middle ground to be truly diverse and
inclusive. I am sure there will be many iterations of the planning as we
work to convert it into action.

Heather


Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com


On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 7:58 AM Darafei Praliaskouski via osmf-talk <
osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 10:48 PM Maarten Deen  wrote:
>
>> I have been silent about this but when a document is drafted where only
>> supporters will be heard, I have to speak out in Frederiks support.
>> I have seen no systemic aggressive behaviour that demotivates and
>> excludes participation by women and minority groups in OSM or behaviour
>> that degrades the spirit of open community culture, and damages the
>> OpenStreetMap reputation from Frederik.
>>
>
> Basically, a person (who is a board candidate) was denied to be able to
> own their own will, substituted with their employer, and insulted in a way
> that I cannot construct a way of self-defense from.
>
> That was done by a former board member, an employee/owner of a company
> that has a seating board member, and if we mirror the whole thing - "done
> to protect Geofabrik's investment into having a seat on the board". Of
> course, such an interpretation will not be acceptable for current board
> member, employee of Geofabrik and expectedly a report of Frederik.
>
> For some reason this aggressive gatekeeping behavior to secure a board
> seat from a small company is tolerated and comes unnoticed. I believe if
> you think Frederik's behavior is

Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread Clay Smalley 
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, 4:08 PM john whelan  wrote:

> In the diverse collection of people we have in OSM you will be hard
> pressed not to offend someone.
>

Really? That hasn't been a problem for me.

I hadn't realised the name Kathleen was one that either gender could use
> and I apologise for making an assumption about the gender of the person
> using it.
>

I typed out my message and sent it before my mail client refreshed and
showed Kathleen's reply. She's clearly a woman. Quit being obtuse.

-Clay (they/them)

>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread john whelan 
In the diverse collection of people we have in OSM you will be hard pressed
not to offend someone.  The views held are very diverse.  Traffic_signal or
traffic_light tagging us an example of very diverse views.  I'm sure
someone will be along and give me the correct way to tag shortly.

I hadn't realised the name Kathleen was one that either gender could use
and I apologise for making an assumption about the gender of the person
using it.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, 16:00 Clay Smalley  wrote:

> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>
> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
> OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
> towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
> evidence of this.
>
> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman
> what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what
> offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you
> by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will
> never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to
> the experts.
>
> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
> feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
> temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
> Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>
> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
> there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
> conduct yesterday.
>
> -Clay (they/them)
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody
>> I hope you are all well
>>
>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
>> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>> diversity.
>>
>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> On behalf of the signatories
>> Best regards
>>
>> Céline Jacquin
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread john whelan 
No but I am suggesting dealing with it is complex and has to be done over
time.  Do you ban jargon for example?

The danger in Celine's confrontational approach is we throw the baby out
with the dish water.

You have an interesting mind and know the background.  How would you
approach this?

And yes I admit to being white male etc.

Many Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, 15:45 Kathleen Lu  wrote:

> > Many females do not map using their own name but will use a male
> sounding name to avoid problems.
>
> John, are you seriously citing this as evidence that there is not
> pervasive misogyny in the OSM community?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread Kathleen Lu via talk 
> Many females do not map using their own name but will use a male sounding 
> name to avoid problems.

John, are you seriously citing this as evidence that there is not
pervasive misogyny in the OSM community?

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