Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Open-Ouvert]

Good day John,

Thank you for your email, and to follow-up with you on our DYI Tool Kit – this 
is currently with our technical department and will be available online very 
soon. We will be sharing this new page via Twitter, our website and also in a 
mailer to let everyone know when this will be live and available.

I hope this helps,

Have a nice day,
Sabrina
Open Government Team

From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com]
Sent: September 28, 2017 6:59 AM
To: Stewart C. Russell
Cc: talk-ca; Open-Ouvert; Aitken, Kent
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

Looks like we need to talk nicely to Open-Ouvert.

Thanks John

On 27 September 2017 at 21:54, Stewart C. Russell 
<scr...@gmail.com<mailto:scr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 2017-09-27 07:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
> No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new standard
> license in the TB kit

Is this initiative published anywhere, John? I virtually attended the
conference it was supposed to be announced at, and all there is is
Jean-Noé's announcement:
http://open.canada.ca/en/blog/coming-soon-do-it-yourself-open-data-toolkit

I also don't remember any consultation on what it was going to look like.

 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Matthew Darwin]

Is there anyone on point to drive this activity?


On 2017-09-28 06:58 AM, john whelan wrote:

Looks like we need to talk nicely to Open-Ouvert.

Thanks John

On 27 September 2017 at 21:54, Stewart C. Russell > wrote:


On 2017-09-27 07:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
> No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new
standard
> license in the TB kit

Is this initiative published anywhere, John? I virtually
attended the
conference it was supposed to be announced at, and all there is is
Jean-Noé's announcement:
http://open.canada.ca/en/blog/coming-soon-do-it-yourself-open-data-toolkit


I also don't remember any consultation on what it was going to
look like.

 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[john whelan]

Looks like we need to talk nicely to Open-Ouvert.

Thanks John

On 27 September 2017 at 21:54, Stewart C. Russell  wrote:

> On 2017-09-27 07:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
> > No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new standard
> > license in the TB kit
>
> Is this initiative published anywhere, John? I virtually attended the
> conference it was supposed to be announced at, and all there is is
> Jean-Noé's announcement:
> http://open.canada.ca/en/blog/coming-soon-do-it-yourself-open-data-toolkit
>
> I also don't remember any consultation on what it was going to look like.
>
>  Stewart
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2017-09-27 07:00 PM, john whelan wrote:
> No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new standard
> license in the TB kit

Is this initiative published anywhere, John? I virtually attended the
conference it was supposed to be announced at, and all there is is
Jean-Noé's announcement:
http://open.canada.ca/en/blog/coming-soon-do-it-yourself-open-data-toolkit

I also don't remember any consultation on what it was going to look like.

 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[James]

municipalities will follow what the federal is doing. ideally everything
would be public domain, but that would be a utopian world. forget them
switching to ODbL, most people have no idea about it and is very
restrictive when you want to change licenses in the future.

On Sep 27, 2017 7:01 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:

> No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new standard
> license in the TB kit and I think Stats will have better success that we
> will in the first instance also Open-Ouvert could probably let us know
> which municipalities have expressed an interest  in the new license.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 27 September 2017 at 18:52, Alan Richards  wrote:
>
>> It's still a different license for each city, province, or organisation,
>> and the current opinion is that each different license needs to go through
>> the same multi-month review to be approved for OSM.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:48 PM, john whelan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> T.B. have what they call a Municipal Open Data kit which basically has
>>> the same license as the city of Ottawa uses plus how to use it.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 27 September 2017 at 18:40, Stewart Russell  wrote:
>>>
 But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
 anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
 review.

  Stewart

 On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:

> other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to
> ogl-cav2
>
> theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
> many restrictions
>
> On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>
>> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up
>> a time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>>
>> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>>
 They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to
 think
 about the project.

>>> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group
>>> (LWG)
>>> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
>>> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if
>>> it
>>> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this
>>> import
>>> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has
>>> decided
>>> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>>>
>>> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
>>> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>>>
>>> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data
>>> set,
>>> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
>>> points already in the middle of buildings.
>>>
>>> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes
>>> some
>>> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>>>
>>>   Stewart
>>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[john whelan]

No we need to persuade the municipalities to move to the new standard
license in the TB kit and I think Stats will have better success that we
will in the first instance also Open-Ouvert could probably let us know
which municipalities have expressed an interest  in the new license.

Cheerio John

On 27 September 2017 at 18:52, Alan Richards  wrote:

> It's still a different license for each city, province, or organisation,
> and the current opinion is that each different license needs to go through
> the same multi-month review to be approved for OSM.
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:48 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> T.B. have what they call a Municipal Open Data kit which basically has
>> the same license as the city of Ottawa uses plus how to use it.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 27 September 2017 at 18:40, Stewart Russell  wrote:
>>
>>> But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
>>> anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
>>> review.
>>>
>>>  Stewart
>>>
>>> On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:
>>>
 other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2

 theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
 many restrictions

 On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:

> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up
> a time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>
> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>
>>> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to
>>> think
>>> about the project.
>>>
>> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group
>> (LWG)
>> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
>> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
>> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
>> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has
>> decided
>> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>>
>> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
>> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>>
>> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data
>> set,
>> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
>> points already in the middle of buildings.
>>
>> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
>> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>>
>>   Stewart
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Alan Richards]

It's still a different license for each city, province, or organisation,
and the current opinion is that each different license needs to go through
the same multi-month review to be approved for OSM.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:48 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> T.B. have what they call a Municipal Open Data kit which basically has the
> same license as the city of Ottawa uses plus how to use it.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 27 September 2017 at 18:40, Stewart Russell  wrote:
>
>> But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
>> anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
>> review.
>>
>>  Stewart
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:
>>
>>> other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2
>>>
>>> theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
>>> many restrictions
>>>
>>> On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>>>
 How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
 time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.

 On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:

> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>
>> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to
>> think
>> about the project.
>>
> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group
> (LWG)
> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has
> decided
> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>
> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>
> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data
> set,
> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
> points already in the middle of buildings.
>
> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>
>   Stewart
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[john whelan]

T.B. have what they call a Municipal Open Data kit which basically has the
same license as the city of Ottawa uses plus how to use it.

Cheerio John

On 27 September 2017 at 18:40, Stewart Russell  wrote:

> But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
> anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
> review.
>
>  Stewart
>
> On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:
>
>> other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2
>>
>> theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
>> many restrictions
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>>
>>> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
>>> time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>>>
>>> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>>>
 On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:

> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to
> think
> about the project.
>
 That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
 hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
 Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
 takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
 is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
 that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.

 Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
 spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.

 Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
 so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
 points already in the middle of buildings.

 It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
 very nice municipal air photos for verification.

   Stewart

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>>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[James]

Stewart i meant a license based on v2. As toronto is based on v1

On Sep 27, 2017 6:40 PM, "Stewart Russell"  wrote:

> But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
> anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
> review.
>
>  Stewart
>
> On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:
>
>> other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2
>>
>> theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
>> many restrictions
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>>
>>> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
>>> time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>>>
>>> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>>>
 On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:

> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to
> think
> about the project.
>
 That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
 hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
 Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
 takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
 is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
 that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.

 Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
 spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.

 Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
 so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
 points already in the middle of buildings.

 It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
 very nice municipal air photos for verification.

   Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Stewart Russell]

But they can't use OGL-CA v2 cos municipalities aren't federal. And
anything but the actual few already approved licences need a multi-month
review.

 Stewart

On Sep 27, 2017 18:28, "James"  wrote:

> other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2
>
> theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too
> many restrictions
>
> On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>
>> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
>> time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>>
>> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>>
 They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
 about the project.

>>> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
>>> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
>>> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
>>> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
>>> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
>>> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>>>
>>> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
>>> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>>>
>>> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
>>> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
>>> points already in the middle of buildings.
>>>
>>> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
>>> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>>>
>>>   Stewart
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[john whelan]

>How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.

I think we need a contact at Stats and since Bjenk has left I'm not sure
who is doing what.  Alessandro is more management overview than a working
contact although I've cced him so he can identify a point person.

The first step is make sure the municipal license is in alignment with the
TB 2.0 open data license.

So question to Kent/Open-Ouvert how is the municipal Open Data package
coming along?

Thanks John

On 27 September 2017 at 18:20, Matthew Darwin  wrote:

> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
> time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>
>
> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>
>>> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
>>> about the project.
>>>
>> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
>> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
>> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
>> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
>> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
>> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>>
>> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
>> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>>
>> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
>> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
>> points already in the middle of buildings.
>>
>> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
>> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>>
>>   Stewart
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[James]

other then have them change their license from say ogl-ca v1 to ogl-cav2

theres not much we can do from a legal stand point. ogl-ca v1 puts too many
restrictions

On Sep 27, 2017 6:21 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:

> How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up a
> time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.
>
> On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>
>>> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
>>> about the project.
>>>
>> That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
>> hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
>> Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
>> takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
>> is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
>> that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.
>>
>> Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
>> spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.
>>
>> Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
>> so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
>> points already in the middle of buildings.
>>
>> It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
>> very nice municipal air photos for verification.
>>
>>   Stewart
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Matthew Darwin]

How do we want to move this discussion forward?  Do we need to set up 
a time to talk on the phone? I am willing to help coordinate logistics.


On 2017-09-17 10:55 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:

On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:

They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
about the project.

That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.

Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.

Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
points already in the middle of buildings.

It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
very nice municipal air photos for verification.

  Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2017-09-17 10:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
> They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
> about the project.

That sounds good. Despite some prodding, the Licence Working Group (LWG)
hasn't got back to me with any updates on how they want to handle the
Toronto or Ontario licences. I first contacted them in March, so if it
takes them six months or more to look at the licence, then this import
is a multi year (if not multi-decade) project. Remember, LWG has decided
that *every* Canadian licence variant needs their sign-off.

Denis Carr (open data lead) from Toronto has been on board since the
spring, and I hope hasn't forgotten us.

Toronto has nice building outlines (embedded in the 3D Massing data set,
so we can pull out base elevation and height). We also have address
points already in the middle of buildings.

It also is of great help that the Esri Community Imagery includes some
very nice municipal air photos for verification.

 Stewart

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[Talk-ca] Stats Canada building project

[john whelan]

They'd like to extend it across Canada so now might be the time to think
about the project.

In Ottawa the building outlines were imported but the tags were mapped
conventionally.  I understand that a lot more POIs have been added manually
to enrich the map and we have a number of people who have mapped for the
first time.

By getting the Open Data license side clarified we were able to import the
bus stops with their reference numbers (GTFS format) which has long been an
ambition of mine.

They've lost Bjenk from the project, he has moved from Stats Canada.

However the import process is a fair chunk of work to get it done correctly
and it isn't as simple as it first appears.  In Ottawa and Gatineau we were
very lucky in having a group of local mappers who devoted a lot of time and
effort in getting it right.

There is also the maintenance side of things.  We now have practically all
the buildings tagged with the correct address.  However the city does
change the names of highways occasionally which means its not just one tag
on the highway that needs changing but all the building street addresses.

I'd suggest that it might be worthwhile setting up a working group to look
at some of the issues and concerns that might arise before Stats starts to
push this without understanding some of the legitimate issues and concerns
and no I have other things to do so I'm not interested in chairing etc the
working group.

Cheerio John
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