Re: [Talk-us] deleting misleading CDPs
richard: I agree with your particular case that this CDP (Census Designated Place) might be deleted, mostly for the reason that there is a named town with the same name. A named town has specific borders codified in state or local statute, making it distinctly real and distinctly of local importance. Given the choice to map town or CDP, I'd say the town is the better choice among the two. A CDP, on the other hand, is something which is federal in nature, and which might be deprecated properly in light of the 10th amendment giving states (and localities like counties, which are divisions of states) rights where the Constitution does not delineate federal powers. But the Constitution DOES delineate the need for a census, so CDPs really might (in a legal, constitutional sense) exist for a good reason. We have a certain state-and-federal system here in the USA, but we do have it. In the instant case, I'm (barely) OK with the deletion, as it causes confusion the way it is now. HOWEVER, a better solution may be to draw the town, name it, and KEEP the CDP, renaming it Niskayuna CDP making it clear that it is a federally-designated area not exactly the same as the town. Which is true. (Coding for the renderer? Yes, this leans that way, but in the interests of clarity, so I'm OK with it). CDPs were discussed in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level and Talk-us Digest, Volume 62, Issue 1 (An admin_level for CDPs?). A consensus that seemed to emerge was CDP polygons imported from TIGER data should not be tagged boundary=administrative (implying an admin_level tag) but should rather be tagged boundary=census. Accordingly, no admin_level tag is required on CDP polygons. (Not to mention a lot of work to update them, whether manually or by script). In Ohio CDP boundaries are being retagged with boundary=census and place=locality but without admin_level. Hence, they still show up in Nominatim as localities: both useful and correct. Importantly, Minh Nguyen writes: I'm not fundamentally opposed to putting in statistical areas; I just think it may be less confusing to use some other value of boundary=* (even with admin_level set), rather than overloading boundary=administrative for what evidently isn't a straightforward hierarchy of government entities. It's specialized information, less important than your typical city/county distinctions when completing the sentence This business is located in... To which I agree. Then I said: What I found useful to do around here (where there are CDP polygons entered from TIGER, but they have no admin_level tag) is to add a point tagged hamlet=* or village=* or town=* (but not necessarily suburb=* as that implies city subordination, nor city=* as that implies incorporation) to the approximate center point of the CDP polygon, along with a name=* tag that matches the name of the CDP. This point might logically be a mathematical centroid, but I have found it more useful to place this point at a more culturally significant point in the human center of the community designated by the CDP. Usually this is at or near a significant crossroads, where there might be a market, a church, a school, a small commercial district, or the like. To which Minh replies: Yes, this makes a lot of sense. TIGER 2008 came with place=hamlets for all the 2010 CDPs in the Cincinnati area, all in very sensible locations, so I just assumed the CDPs were a subset of all the unincorporated areas in TIGER. Of course, again, I would agree with keeping the place= POIs. Given all this, what I would do is rename the CDP Niskayuna CDP, delete its admin_level tag, add the tag boundary=census, AND draw the town boundaries with an admin_level=8 and name=Niskayuna. If you want to additionally force a render of a cultural centerpoint of Niskayuna CDP (to be sure: distinct from the town), you could add a node with name=Niskayuna CDP and place=[hamlet, village, town] as appropriate. I hope this all helps. SteveA California i'm planning to delete a misleading CDP in the near future, i'm pondering the fact that from time to time we talk about deleting all the CDPs, an idea which i sometimes think is the right idea. in this case, the CDP is for Niskayuna NY http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.8152lon=-73.8988zoom=14layers=M which is a tiny sliver of the Town of Niskayuna. the CDP is bounded on the east by Balltown Road, on the west by the level 8 admin boundary about 8 blocks away, on the south by Union Street, and on the north by Providence Avenue. at the same time i will add the proper border for the Town which is not there at present. nobody even knows what the CDP is and it's mostly just confusing. the town offices and the high school aren't even inside the CDP boundary. thoughts, anyone? my feeling is that if there's a named town then including a much smaller CDP with the same name is quite misleading.
Re: [Talk-us] Take another look at notes!
Craigslist had added a feature to their OSM powered maps to submit map problems back to OSM Have you found that feature actually on craigslist? On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:25 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: As I'm sure a lot of you are aware, osm.org has a new notes [1] feature (new as of a month ago) that allows anonymous users to submit random comments about our maps. Some of them will of course be unhelpful or silly but there have been many useful ones submitted since the feature went live. We actually have a bot in the #osm-us IRC channel that announces whenever a new note is posted anywhere in the US. Recently I noticed a pattern on some of the notes and guessed (correctly as it turns out) that Craigslist had added a feature to their OSM powered maps to submit map problems back to OSM. At first things were a little chaotic and we were getting notes about Craigslist page layout problems and such. But they have tweaked some things and the reports coming in now have a better signal-to-noise ratio. There does still seem to be a fairly common problem of people reporting geocoding related problems that don't affect OSM data. These usually say something about a city name being displayed incorrectly when osm.org either has the correct city name or there isn't a city label nearby. Not quite sure what is happening there. You can tell a Craigslist note by the fact that they start with the text bounds: followed by a pair of coordinates. This indicates the map view that the user was looking at when the note was submitted. As of a few hours ago they are also adding a URL that will open the map with a box on it to graphically display this bounds information. This is just useful to see if they were zoomed in really close or looking at a whole region. I think this might be the first example of a bug sumitted after this was added: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?note=5245 But Craigslist isn't the only source of new notes and there are a lot of them waiting for resolution. So please, if you haven't taken a look recently, check the Notes box on the layer chooser on osm.org and see if there is anything near you that needs some attention. They should start showing up at zoom level 8 or 9, depending on the size of your browser window (the query is limited by geographic area, not by zoom level) Even if the note itself isn't entirely clear on what is wrong, a quick look at the area in an editor may well point out missing roads or crazy TIGER problems that might be easy to fix. If stats are your thing, Pascal Neis has made some notes statistics that are updated every hour: http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-notes Keep in mind that not all notes are submitted by anonymous users and if you comment on a note that was submitted by an OSM user, they will be notified of your response. This allows for some discussion of the issue if need be. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Notes Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know. Looking forward to your answers. Many thanks, Frederic___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] deleting misleading CDPs
From: Richard Welty [mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:22 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: [Talk-us] deleting misleading CDPs my feeling is that if there's a named town then including a much smaller CDP with the same name is quite misleading. i think the same situation exists in Rotterdam NY and if i find that that's the case, i'll apply the same remedy. I agree with this. I'd only favor including CDPs if there was no city there but people expected administrative delineation. Someone local would be the best judge of if the CDP was relevant. I do not agree with including CDPs for their own sake. If someone wants the CDPs, they should go to the census and layer the results in their rendering or whatever they're doing. Unlike city boundaries, CDPs aren't useful to a wide range of people and they are readily available in a geodata format. Also, a CDP is what the census thinks a place is, so by definition what they say a CDP is they are correct. This differs from admin boundaries where there is no one authoritative source and there is frequent disagreement on what they are in some regions. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Take another look at notes!
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: Craigslist had added a feature to their OSM powered maps to submit map problems back to OSM Have you found that feature actually on craigslist? It's in the process of posting a housing ad. When you place the marker for your ad there's a button that lets you report a problem with the map. Here's a screenshot from the other day: http://i.imgur.com/JK5TYfi.png They've since removed the s at the end of OpenStreetMap. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Frederic, How about more mappers? Mike On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Frederic Julien fjulie...@yahoo.comwrote: Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know. Looking forward to your answers. Many thanks, Frederic ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
One thing that would help in the editor software would be, once you select a tag, and list the preset values available, to have the option to list the wiki descriptions of what those values mean. This should be optional, and should come up in a separate window so you don't lose track of what you are editing. Frederic Julien fjulie...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know. Looking forward to your answers. Many thanks, Frederic ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Frederic Julien fjulie...@yahoo.comwrote: I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. First you need to define what good data quality is and second, you need to collect data to measure data quality. Once good data is collect then start determining root cause of the problem. Most of what I see is anecdotal evidence of problems. Fixing the cause of those problems is good, but it may not get at the underlying issues. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
As already noted, quality is in the eye of the beholder. That said, there are some objective quality indicators such as positional accuracy, completeness, resolution. I summarized this in a paper a few years ago from another source, where I also introduced the notion of 'crowd quality' in an academic attempt to capture specific quality considerations for crowdsourced geospatial data: http://www.giscience2010.org/pdfs/paper_213.pdf Not much of an academic, I later picked this up in a more pragmatic manner to create the notion of data temperature I presented at SOTM US 2011: http://oegeo.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/taking-the-temperature-of-local-openstreetmap-communities/ Someone else mentioned we need more mappers. There is truth to that but we also need to care about building out the community: how do we reduce the churn rate, or in other words how to keep mappers involved and motivated to continue mapping? how do we nurture the power mappers, those 5% who create 80% or more of the map data - especially in light of the large amounts of new mappers coming in? and finally how do we make local communities work? Latter is super important because great local data (transit, businesses, addresses) is key to the usefulness (hey, another way of thinking about quality!) of OSM. Great local data is something you only get if folks who know a place, folks with different interests and from different walks of life, work on the map together. Currently that happens in too few places. I think one of the most important keys to making good OSM data great lies in figuring out how to build strong local communities. In Europe, we have that down.It all started with that. Get together and map. Have fun, figure it out together. While traveling in Germany recently, I did not have to go online once to find my way, my hotel, restaurant, bus stop etc. The map is *that good*. Sure, there are more mappers per sqm there. But it is just as much about people getting together, motivating each other, collaborating on more complex mapping tasks (stuff like transit relations[1]). We have a long way to go still in the US, and we may need a different approach than Europe. I think I just wrote half of one of my SOTM US talk. Thanks Frederic ;) hth Martijn [1] http://www.overpass-api.de/api/sketch-line?network=VBBref=M1operator= On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: On 5/31/13 3:15 PM, Frederic Julien wrote: Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. at one level, i agree with Clifford Snow's comment that first you need to define data quality. at another level, i think that we can talk about the following: 1) consistency in tagging. editor improvements, better documentation, better training materials can all help with this 2) improved processes and controls for data import (this is work that is happening on the US import committee). there are a lot of imports of the past that suffer from Quality Control issues, and lots of imports that never should have been done because of problems with the data quality. 3) in the US (and you did ask on talk-us), identifying and dealing with the shaky Tiger data from the 2007 tiger import. some of this has been done, but it's an ongoing effort and is one of those things that is easier to say than it is to do richard __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: and finally how do we make local communities work? Latter is super important because great local data (transit, businesses, addresses) is key to the usefulness (hey, another way of thinking about quality!) of OSM. Great local data is something you only get if folks who know a place, folks with different interests and from different walks of life, work on the map together. Currently that happens in too few places. I think one of the most important keys to making good OSM data great lies in figuring out how to build strong local communities. Well said. I've been looking at the statistics, complements to Johan C, for pointing me to the resource (which I can't find right now.) When looking at the number of mappers as a percentage of population, the US lags. I'd like to see the US agree to measure the metric, mappers per 100,000 population with a goal of drastically improving the numbers. Sorry for being off topic, but Martijn comments were too good to pass up. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Thanks to Martijn and others for their input. I'll share my presentation via slideshare once completed. Please continue to share your insights :) Kind Regards, Frederic From: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org To: Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net Cc: OSM US Talk talk-us@openstreetmap.org Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality As already noted, quality is in the eye of the beholder. That said, there are some objective quality indicators such as positional accuracy, completeness, resolution. I summarized this in a paper a few years ago from another source, where I also introduced the notion of 'crowd quality' in an academic attempt to capture specific quality considerations for crowdsourced geospatial data: http://www.giscience2010.org/pdfs/paper_213.pdf Not much of an academic, I later picked this up in a more pragmatic manner to create the notion of data temperature I presented at SOTM US 2011: http://oegeo.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/taking-the-temperature-of-local-openstreetmap-communities/ Someone else mentioned we need more mappers. There is truth to that but we also need to care about building out the community: how do we reduce the churn rate, or in other words how to keep mappers involved and motivated to continue mapping? how do we nurture the power mappers, those 5% who create 80% or more of the map data - especially in light of the large amounts of new mappers coming in? and finally how do we make local communities work? Latter is super important because great local data (transit, businesses, addresses) is key to the usefulness (hey, another way of thinking about quality!) of OSM. Great local data is something you only get if folks who know a place, folks with different interests and from different walks of life, work on the map together. Currently that happens in too few places. I think one of the most important keys to making good OSM data great lies in figuring out how to build strong local communities. In Europe, we have that down.It all started with that. Get together and map. Have fun, figure it out together. While traveling in Germany recently, I did not have to go online once to find my way, my hotel, restaurant, bus stop etc. The map is *that good*. Sure, there are more mappers per sqm there. But it is just as much about people getting together, motivating each other, collaborating on more complex mapping tasks (stuff like transit relations[1]). We have a long way to go still in the US, and we may need a different approach than Europe. I think I just wrote half of one of my SOTM US talk. Thanks Frederic ;) hth Martijn [1] http://www.overpass-api.de/api/sketch-line?network=VBBref=M1operator= On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 5/31/13 3:15 PM, Frederic Julien wrote: Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. at one level, i agree with Clifford Snow's comment that first you need to define data quality. at another level, i think that we can talk about the following: 1) consistency in tagging. editor improvements, better documentation, better training materials can all help with this 2) improved processes and controls for data import (this is work that is happening on the US import committee). there are a lot of imports of the past that suffer from Quality Control issues, and lots of imports that never should have been done because of problems with the data quality. 3) in the US (and you did ask on talk-us), identifying and dealing with the shaky Tiger data from the 2007 tiger import. some of this has been done, but it's an ongoing effort and is one of those things that is easier to say than it is to do richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Frederic: Validator is an excellent tool, but currently only works with JOSM. I'd love to see Potlatch and/or iD do something similar. True, many (most) ignore what Validator may report, and while Errors are always Errors, Warnings are a bit more subtle and really must be taken one at a time on a case-by-case basis. Doing the right thing with a Validator Warning takes experience, and for ultimate data quality, Validator really needs to be paid attention to much more often than it is now. However, you may argue that such entry-level editors do not lend themselves well to such an approach. We might talk about that, as done well, it could work. I would also vote for experienced OSM importers looking over the shoulder of less experienced contributors as they import data. We try to do this with the import guidelines, but there is nothing like an experienced OSM contributor who has faced (and overcome) difficult choices about data format translations, exactly what should be in what tags, what to do with fuzzily defined concepts (like landuse vs. landcover) issues, etc. This really comes from building good OSM community, where the Elmers (an old ham radio term meaning those more experienced) are around to answer questions, mentor and be a good example to the less experienced. That's a tall order, and a little non-specific, I know. The recent game/goal-oriented sub-projects (connectivity, Zorro...) have had fantastic results. We could use more of these, as their success is proven. Wider attempts like Operation Cowboy, not so much, however the cake map (http://http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/ ) used in Cowboy is an exceedingly useful tool when used properly (by an active, communicative OSM community -- I speak from personal, recent experience). The OSM Inspector tools (http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/) I find highly valuable. If we could get something like a Zorro/Cowboy approach to work with the first three tool categories (Geometry, Routing and Multipolygons), that would be fantastic. This would have to be really, really well-prepped, and again, it does take experience to use this tool and see what is wrong, then fix it to be right. However, if possible, (I think it is, but it is admittedly ambitious), imagine the results in data quality! Clifford Snow writes: First you need to define what good data quality is and second, you need to collect data to measure data quality. Once good data is collect then start determining root cause of the problem. Most of what I see is anecdotal evidence of problems. Fixing the cause of those problems is good, but it may not get at the underlying issues. I say +1 to this, but it is nebulous as to be only broadly helpful. Clifford, care to flesh that out a bit? The USA OSM community is, as Martijn pointed out, lagging in many ways compared to those in Europe. I say that not to disrespect us, but as I point out that we are behind a few years, we have a much broader area (one of the most important reasons why, truthfully), and we have lower population densities (a corollary of, and another, more specific way of broader area just mentioned). So the traction to get good mappers mapping is slower to grip and go. We are doing the right things, we just seem to be getting slower results. But our results are very good, even excellent in some cases. Yet, per this thread, we really can do better. Good thread! SteveA California I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know. Looking forward to your answers. Many thanks, Frederic___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Martijn van Exel-3 wrote As already noted, quality is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, quality lies in the eye of the beholder. Or perhaps better said in the eye of the data consumer. Therefore the assessment of quality will depend on the application and use case you have in mind. I think OSM has enough commercial users by now to be able to get a decent (subjective) overview of data quality without doing a scientific analysis of data quality one self. Instead one can probably ask the various developers of frequently used software based on OSM data, what the most common complaints of their respective end users are about the data. That should give a pretty decent overview of the data quality in practical terms and where the OSM community could possibly best focus their efforts to improve the quality of the data. Either through more mappers, or by quality control tools and perhaps even bots. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-Data-Quality-tp5763578p5763613.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Take another look at notes!
On 5/31/13 2:57 PM, Alex Barth wrote: Craigslist had added a feature to their OSM powered maps to submit map problems back to OSM Have you found that feature actually on craigslist? i'd going to go take a look at the UI if i can find it. there is a note on the wiki page for the new feature: It is OK for third party sites or apps that use OpenStreetMap data to include notes functionality through the API. This feature will however, only be useful if the quality of reports are high. Therefore it is important that the issue reports include sufficient information and detail for an experienced mapper to be able to fix the issue. Also, it is important that you make your users aware that this is to be used only for commenting on map data issues and not general aspects of your site or app. developers, take heed! i have found most of the bug reports on mapdust (which has some sort of mobile device tie in) to be pretty useless, drivers in their cars tend not to enter anywhere near enough information. i have added notes requesting more information and never gotten a response to any of them. i generally end up closing the old stale ones for not enough information. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Richard, We need: 1. More people. A big part of the map is untouched. We could reach out more to the educational community to get middle-school and high-school students involved. 2. Better training for people who are new to OSM. I think learnosm.org is very good. I'm a little apprehensive that iD is too geeky for people who are not coders. 3. Clear priorities. If I've just joined OSM, and I'm rarin' to go, what should I do first? I don't mean that we should constrain people's creativity, but a little guidance would be helpful. Should they align streets, check street names, add all street lights? Find all turn restrictions in their area? What kinds of things would improve the quality of the data? I have no agenda here. I'm waiting to be guided, too. Charlotte At 01:28 PM 5/31/2013, you wrote: On 5/31/13 3:15 PM, Frederic Julien wrote: Dear all, I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts. What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes, etc. at one level, i agree with Clifford Snow's comment that first you need to define data quality. at another level, i think that we can talk about the following: 1) consistency in tagging. editor improvements, better documentation, better training materials can all help with this 2) improved processes and controls for data import (this is work that is happening on the US import committee). there are a lot of imports of the past that suffer from Quality Control issues, and lots of imports that never should have been done because of problems with the data quality. 3) in the US (and you did ask on talk-us), identifying and dealing with the shaky Tiger data from the 2007 tiger import. some of this has been done, but it's an ongoing effort and is one of those things that is easier to say than it is to do richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Take another look at notes!
On May 31, 2013 5:52 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 5/31/13 6:30 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 5/31/13 2:57 PM, Alex Barth wrote: Craigslist had added a feature to their OSM powered maps to submit map problems back to OSM Have you found that feature actually on craigslist? i'd going to go take a look at the UI if i can find it. ok, i found report a problem on the map view for housing units in an area. i'll have to go find a map problem and report it via the GUI so i can see the full cycle. It's not on the map view itself it's during the posting process. If you end up on a Craigslist forum page you're in the wrong spot. See my linked screenshot. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Post tornado HOT mapping
I would like to give a heads-up to any Humanitarian OSM Team folks on this, since assistance may be needed as early as this weekend given developing events with dangerous storms moving through most major Oklahoma cities at this hour. This looks like it's going to be another hairy day for Oklahoma, watching some potentially map-changing events rolling in on radar right now. http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?product=NCRrid=inxloop=yes If anybody from the OKGIS community has the ability to do so, OpenStreetMap would greatly appreciate Open Database License-compatible ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Bulk_Import_Support_Page) imagery after the storms to aid in updating the map if we have another event like we had in Moore. For anyone interested in some armchair mapping, we do have updated imagery for Moore (check the talk-us archives) that Bearing Tree has graciously provided for our use. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute, NE2
After a delay the DWG and OSMF have reached conclusions on the case involving a turn restriction dispute between Paul Johnson and NE2 that was referred to it by Paul Johnson, NE2, and multiple other members of the community. This decision took an extended amount of time due to the investigation and multiple bodies the decision went through. The final decision has been endorsed by the OSMF board. The decision has been made to ban NE2. This is not a decision that was taken lightly. This is an indefinite ban. The full text of the DWG recommendation to the board is available at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/File:DWG_NE2_Turn_Restriction_dispute.pdf but the executive summary is as follows: NE2 is a user in Florida who tends to be in edit wars with others and is involved in many arguments. There was an edit war over a turn restriction earlier this year, which was referred to the DWG by NE2, the other person involved in the dispute, and members of the US community. NE2's behavior in this dispute was consistent with his past behavior and shows an inability to work with others on what is a crowd-sourcing project. The DWG has recommending/requesting an indefinite (not infinite) ban. This covers both his NE2 and NE3 accounts. Paul Norman For the Data Working Group ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Richard Welty writes: 3) in the US (and you did ask on talk-us), identifying and dealing with the shaky Tiger data from the 2007 tiger import. some of this has been done, but it's an ongoing effort and is one of those things that is easier to say than it is to do I've been adding lakes and ponds to New York State. I have a list of points and names[1]. I'm using the lat/lon to point me to a lake/pond which is in this list. I trace it using bing aerials, and look at the (public domain) USGS topographic maps to add the name. I'm making good progress. It's taken me since August of last year, and I'm now into the S names. It's fun! For a small pond or lake, it takes less than 30 seconds to add it. So, what if we could automatically identify misaligned TIGER ways and make a list? Then people could take a few minutes, grab a few ways and armchair fix them. I've been working on finding and fixing them in New York State. I've probably got more than half -- maybe 60% fixed. Hopefully even 70%. And I'm just one mapper (well, and you're another mapper who's done a ton, plus there's a few more I'm sure). My main difficulty right now is finding areas of misalignment. I've gone through entire counties and aligned every road I could find, but I'm sure I missed a few. It doesn't have to be a perfect process; it just needs to be easy and quick to use. It's okay if a few already-fixed roads get pointed to, as long as it's not too many, and it's okay if a few unfixed roads get skipped, as long as it's not too many. The better we can make the map data, the more people will want to use it to make maps and the more people will want to fix That One Last Flaw. [1] I'm not sure of the copyright license on the list, so I'm using it to point me to the general area of a lake or pond, and digitizing it de novo. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
On 5/31/13 9:39 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: I've been working on finding and fixing them in New York State. I've probably got more than half -- maybe 60% fixed. Hopefully even 70%. And I'm just one mapper (well, and you're another mapper who's done a ton, plus there's a few more I'm sure). My main difficulty right now is finding areas of misalignment. I've gone through entire counties and aligned every road I could find, but I'm sure I missed a few. Warren and Scoharie Counties still need a lot of work. Scoharie is a candidate for testing a selective replacement with TIGER 2010/11/12 data. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Take another look at notes!
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: ok, i found report a problem on the map view for housing units in an area. i'll have to go find a map problem and report it via the GUI so i can see the full cycle. I only found two notes for the Greater Seattle area. (Lucky me?) One anonymous reported a business name. The other looked like a mapper that was just saying that the tiger road data was sucky. (it was.) It would be nice to have the note say the source, i.e. craigslist, osm, routing program. That might give more clues to the problem. Plus it would give us data if we decided that the reports are useless and needed to modify the API. But it's a good start. Be nice if more apps used it, especially ones like Foursquare. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:02 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: Clifford Snow writes: First you need to define what good data quality is and second, you need to collect data to measure data quality. Once good data is collect then start determining root cause of the problem. Most of what I see is anecdotal evidence of problems. Fixing the cause of those problems is good, but it may not get at the underlying issues. I say +1 to this, but it is nebulous as to be only broadly helpful. Clifford, care to flesh that out a bit? You mean you could sense what I was trying to say? Needless to say, I tend to be a bit terse with my emails. So let me try a slightly longer version. We need quality standards that can be measured. We can and should have standards for mapping objects and ways. With those standards a quality control sampling process could be initiated to test the quality of new edits as well as the existing data. With a sample of data we could build a histogram of errors. Ideally tackling the largest column. Even a small sample size can work. Statistical Process Control in a manufacturing process only samples some 20 items. This isn't a manufacturing process, but the principles are the same. Unfortunately, some of what we do is subjective. Take the recent issue of tagging Subway sandwich shops that was recently discussed on one of the mailing lists. Everyone had a valid solution. Maybe some were more valid that others, but anyone of them was workable. Yet tagging POI is an important step to get right. Adding a node to say this is a bus stop, when it isn't is very clearly a data quality issue. It can be measured. The path of a highway can be determined to track gps traces or Bing images. It can be measured. However, is it accurately tagged as a primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. is somewhat subjective. Tackling the subjective is more difficult. For example, the Subway sandwich shop. If we had hard and fast rules it that every Subway be tagged as amenity=fastfood then we could easily do a quality check. But OSM give people a lot of tagging freedom. One last thing. My sense is that the problem generally isn't the mappers. Yes I screwed up more than my fair share of edits. But most problems are system problems. To fix those we need good data and a willingness to get at the root cause of the problem. Short summary: sample edits, categorize errors, determine root cause, then fix root cause. That process will drastically improve the quality of OSM. Hopefully someone with more recent background in Quality Control can step in here to help me out. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] User Cam4rd98 gun-jumping new highways + adding fictional alignments
This user has been brought to my attention with him gun-jumping highways marking them as open when they aren't yet (I-74/US-311 [1] - I've already fixed this one), or adding completely fictional alignments for highways that aren't even under-construction yet or proposed (I-66 in IN [2], and an alignment of NC-540 [3]). I'm pretty sure these aren't the only ones he's done, so this could be just the tip of the iceberg. Has anybody had any prior contact with this user? Just wish that all the editing programs forced a comment before upload. Really hate the no comment changesets. -James [1] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/2725 [2] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/3136 [3] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/3160 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Martijn van Exel wrote: I think I just wrote half of one of my SOTM US talk. I think you just wrote half of mine too. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-Data-Quality-tp5763578p5763648.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] User Cam4rd98 gun-jumping new highways + adding fictional alignments
I've had to clean up his edits before. What bothers me is that he's unresponsive and never leaves any comments on his edits. I've brought him up before to DWG but nothing's been done. On May 31, 2013 9:59 PM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote: This user has been brought to my attention with him gun-jumping highways marking them as open when they aren't yet (I-74/US-311 [1] - I've already fixed this one), or adding completely fictional alignments for highways that aren't even under-construction yet or proposed (I-66 in IN [2], and an alignment of NC-540 [3]). I'm pretty sure these aren't the only ones he's done, so this could be just the tip of the iceberg. Has anybody had any prior contact with this user? Just wish that all the editing programs forced a comment before upload. Really hate the no comment changesets. -James [1] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/2725 [2] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/3136 [3] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/3160 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
ramble++; Clifford, yes I could sense what you were trying to say: I have a thirty+ year Quality background at Apple, Adobe, IBM, the University of California (and others) as an employee, contractor, subcontractor and consultant. You are doing fine, you just did fine. OSM does sample edits, and some people listen and pay attention when the tools talk to them: your step 1. OSM does categorize errors (your step 2): both within tools, like JOSM does with Validator, but also longer-term problems that can be solved by both human and one-at-a-time (usually somewhat manually) as well as bot -- bot if small samples are first built and proven smart about how they'll be unleashed. A (selfish, but valid) example: correct (within parameters) all the geographical mistakes to multipolygons in California caught by geofabrik Inspector. A human or a bot might do that if you have some time on your hands, some of which might go towards crafting bots. But first we pull and tug about what the right set of those samples are. Briefly, assume we can identify and reach consensus upon some. Then we land in a fuzzy part of your step 3 of determine root cause so we can get to step 4. Sounds about right, but we have bifurcated (multi-furcated?) into so many root causes that we have to get very plural (root causes) and then even begin to categorize those. Continuing, we can apply smarts and tools and a quality approach even to those. Such a long-term, multi-rolling approach to quality must continue. This is an important middle about how it both gets talked about and implemented. (Potential root causes are likely manyfold: a fundamental misunderstanding about the concept and implementation of multipolygon is probably one, mapping tools which don't fully express multipolygon concepts across data format translations is probably another, and so on). There is another thing about Quality which doesn't often get said out loud: I know superb quality when I [see, experience...] it. That is a sublime, slippery, elusive don't forget about the topic. This means finish lines and checkered flags, while they can be reached many ways, usually do so as they make a large number of people happiest. The ones who clearly articulated not only what the finish line is, but milestones along the way and how we cross them. That means consensus, good project management, being stepwise, thoughtful, communicative and achieving a definable goal with harmony. It is much easier talked about than done, but that doesn't make it impossible, just worthy. Good specifications of finish lines (milestones, hurdles along the way...) are worth a great deal. OSM has some difficulty now articulating the decades-away finish line (which is OK, but let's keep an eye on it), but we can set up short hurdles to hop over during the upcoming intermediates. How we do that is an important part of the next ten or twenty years of OSM (in my opinion). We can't just say someday this'll be the best damn map on Earth. We have to say how. I recently said no to an important OSM contributor who wants to do a building and address import. I know for a fact that the data are noisy, obsolete and we can do better, so I said I'd rather get them right offline first before we import known wrong data. That's the right call. How do I know? I live among the data and because of their age and errors, found them less rather than more useful in the map. Sometimes Quality is that simple. Mostly it is not. I just know using old map data sucks. Upload is the last step, not the first: get it right in your editor offline before you start spilling buckets of paint. OSM lives and breathes as as Earth's cave wall, we paint our neon tubing and scribbles alike. Think before you upload. Make each changeset a few smart brushstrokes on a shared canvas. Leave the place better than you find it. Your mother doesn't live here. Tinkering with OSM's gears is allowed, especially if you are handy, an artist, a cartographer or a lot of things life has to offer, such as a thinker about Quality. Many people, long process. Lather, lather, rinse, repeat. Talking about Better can, even should result in Better. I'll close by saying it again: good of you to urge along the conversation in this thread. ramble--; SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
