In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bill Hawk
ins" writes:
>Perhaps some of you didn't understand the paragraph on
>process control systems, or perhaps you are still pondering.
It sounds a lot more like you have no idea what caliber of
people you are talking to Bill.
I have spent 25 years doing all
Perhaps some of you didn't understand the paragraph on
process control systems, or perhaps you are still pondering.
Let me restate the solution for those who can only get UTC
but need monotonically increasing wall clock time.
Note that "you" is no one specific, just not me.
1. Provide your compu
M. Warner Losh said,
"Time sources are in UTC, and you need a leapsecond
count to recover TAI."
Is this what all the fuss is about? UTC is all that is distributed
and you have to do a subtraction to get TAI?
He also said, on the subject of NTP and one days notice,
"So while the computers are lik
In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Bill Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: My little program served the needs of civil time. It backs up
: at 59 seconds because the display software can't handle 60.
: That seems close enough for civil work. If you must have
: monotonically increasing
Oh, dear. I have made a mistake. I had not realized that
I was dealing with purists who love to argue.
Here are my understandings of the time scales:
UTC: Civil time, what most people mean by time of day. Was
determined by star crossings at Greenwich, now related to
TAI in that both use the same
In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"M. Warner Losh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike S) writes:
: : At 06:36 PM 7/16/2005, Robert Lutwak wrote...
: : >As for concern that people in 10,000 years won't conform to having the s
In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike S) writes:
: At 06:36 PM 7/16/2005, Robert Lutwak wrote...
: >As for concern that people in 10,000 years won't conform to having the sun
come up 15 minutes earlier, I'd say y'all are underestimating the power of
adaptive evolutio
At 06:36 PM 7/16/2005, Robert Lutwak wrote...
>As for concern that people in 10,000 years won't conform to having the sun
>come up 15 minutes earlier, I'd say y'all are underestimating the power of
>adaptive evolution.
Innumeracy or deliberate and egregious understatement? AM and PM would be
re
At 06:12 PM 7/16/2005, Bill Hawkins wrote...
>Um, would you care to point out the more serious bugs?
>
>Bill
The UTC time sequence with your code would go (at the 1 second interrupts):
23:59:59.0
23:59:59.0
00:00:00.0
Leading to ambiguous (duplicated) timestamps. The correct solution is closer t
You've missed all the GUI code to let the user pick out his time zone and
the table of all of them, including the screwy half-hour ones and those that
don't do daylight savings. You've also missed the possibility that leap
seconds occur on other dates. There are some countries that do them at
In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Bill Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: Um, would you care to point out the more serious bugs?
(1) Leap seconds can happen at the end of any month, not just
june/decemeber.
(2) Leap seconds can be both positive and negative
(3) Local time is typ
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bill Hawk
ins" writes:
>Um, would you care to point out the more serious bugs?
1. Leap-seconds can happen at the end of any month. Preference is
given to june+december and after that march+september.
2. Leap-seconds can add or delete a second.
3. You apply t
Um, would you care to point out the more serious bugs?
Bill
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 3:47 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re: UTC - A Cautiona
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bill Hawk
ins" writes:
>Garbage is in the eye of the beholder.
Indeed.
That your "I'm gonna show those morons!!!" example contains serious
bugs in the leap second handling makes this one of my most treasured
emails in this entire debate.
Welcome to category 3) B
Robert Lutwak said,
"It ain't "...a few lines." Properly dealing with timezones, daylight
savings, and leapseconds can easily run into thousands of lines of code, by
the time you include of of the oddball irregularities around the world. Not
only does the clockmaker have to implement all of this
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>Why are you so convinced that there couldn't possibly be negative
>ramifications associated with the unexamined assumptions underlying
>the distinction between time-of-day and interval time? Or simply
>with the unwarranted assumption that
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bill Hawk
ins" writes:
>Anybody *know* how The Clock of the Long Now proposed
>to handle leap seconds over 10,000 years? Please note
>the emphasis on "know." We have enough shared
>ignorance as it is, from myself included.
I don't think the intra-day timekeeping w
Poul-Henning Kamp said,
"Hopefully not too many people will be hurt trying to convince you."
The great majority of people do not know that leap seconds exist.
They set their watches by their WWVB (or whatever) inexpensive
atomic clock receiver if they care about time at all.
If you don't have le
Anybody *know* how The Clock of the Long Now proposed
to handle leap seconds over 10,000 years? Please note
the emphasis on "know." We have enough shared
ignorance as it is, from myself included.
The Moon does not cause leap seconds. That effect is
measured in milliseconds per century.
John, shou
Hopefully not too many people will be hurt trying to convince you.
Amen. And hopefully any resulting lawsuits will assign blame and
damages where they belong - with the financial backers and managers
and designers of systems that failed to implement the appropriate
international standard.
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>There will be no need to reeducate anybody if the civil time standard
>is left unchanged.
That is why I'm sort of happy we got a leap-second next january:
that will allow us to judge claims like yours.
Hopefully not too many people will be hu
On Jul 16, 2005, at 12:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
No, you can not tell me today how many seconds between now and
2010-01-01 00:00:00 UTC and that is the whole problem.
That is *part* of the problem - a part that is intrinsic to living
within a non-inertial reference frame. Folks who n
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mike S writes
:
>_All_ uses of civil time expect it to be synchronous with astronomical
>time, to varying degrees of precision. An absence of leap (seconds)
>will eventually cause it to be dark at noon, unadjusted use of the
>current formula for leap days will eventu
At 07:37 AM 7/16/2005, Robert Lutwak wrote...
>Personally, I'd like to eliminate timezones and daylight savings, as well as
>leapseconds. Why is it so important that everyone on the planet clock in at 8
>a.m. or that we all have dinner at 6 p.m. ?
That's a short term view. Eliminate the leap se
Rob Seaman wrote:
Straightforward algorithms (a few lines of C) can convert standard time to
local time and mean time to apparent time.
It ain't "...a few lines." Properly dealing with timezones, daylight
savings, and leapseconds can easily run into thousands of lines of code, by
the time
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>Nobody has invested ten cents in a
>good luck safety net toward the retirement of leap seconds.
The entire problem is that people have not spent ten cents on
properly handling leap seconds.
>The public - including folks like applications prog
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>No - by standardizing the meaning of the terms, we made it possible
>to easily convert between all the flavors of solar time using closed
>form algorithms accurate to whatever precision is required.
No, you can not tell me today how many sec
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