In message 9d1dabc0-ae63-4fb5-ad7d-d8c42f9fd...@gmail.com, Dennis Ferguson wr
ites:
If so, frequency stability is priority number one and time is
probably just better than 100msec or so
I could swear I saw something that said 50 ns, though I can
You can _almost_ do that with loran, if you
...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:16 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
In message 9d1dabc0-ae63-4fb5-ad7d-d8c42f9fd...@gmail.com, Dennis Ferguson
wr
ites:
If so, frequency stability is priority
Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
Has anybody asked them how good timefreq they're
In message d20d95b53d5c40f5aca05df98fdb9...@vectron.com, Bob Camp writes:
If they are backing up GPS for telcom, then CDMA timing is the most likely
target. That gets them to 10 us max and 1 us typical. Of course somebody
would have to buy the gear to actually *use* it to do any good... (yes I
and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
In message d20d95b53d5c40f5aca05df98fdb9...@vectron.com, Bob Camp
writes:
If they are backing up GPS for telcom, then CDMA timing is the most likely
target. That gets them to 10 us max and 1 us typical. Of course somebody
would have
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
In messaged20d95b53d5c40f5aca05df98fdb9...@vectron.com, Bob Camp
writes:
If they are backing up GPS for telcom, then CDMA timing is the most likely
target. That gets them to 10 us max and 1 us typical. Of course somebody
would have to buy the gear to actually
: Thursday, March 08, 2012 5:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
In messaged20d95b53d5c40f5aca05df98fdb9...@vectron.com, Bob Camp
writes:
If they are backing up GPS for telcom, then CDMA timing is the most likely
target. That gets
On 03/09/2012 12:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
SDH/SONET generally is line timed rather than GPS locked. It's ultimate
authority is the Stratum 1 above it...
Yes, but GPS/LORAN can be used to build holdover synchronisation, and
verify the local cesiums.
Stratum 1 is the ANSI T1.101 name, also
Hi
Indeed, you *can* use GPS for a lot of things. You pretty much *must* use it
for CDMA.
Bob
On Mar 8, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
On 03/09/2012 12:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
SDH/SONET generally is line timed rather than GPS locked. It's
On 8 Mar, 2012, at 02:58 , Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
Has anybody asked them how good timefreq they're trying to deliver ?
I would assume that they are aiming for a backup for GPS in
telecom-GPSDO context.
If so, frequency stability is priority number one and time is
probably just better
[mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 9:27 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations
Has anybody asked them how good timefreq they're trying to deliver ?
I would assume that they are aiming for a backup for GPS in
telecom-GPSDO context.
If so, frequency stability is priority number one and time is
probably just better than 100msec or so
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since
To: j...@quikus.com ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.
Would you happen you know
In message f5c81892-7ebd-4f57-8131-59d8eee21...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes:
You still come back to what killer Loran-C in the first place -
Who is going to use it?
No, I don't particularly think Loran-C is a killer, but until recently
it was the only feasilble backup for fragile GNSS signals.
I agree.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dkwrote:
In message f5c81892-7ebd-4f57-8131-59d8eee21...@rtty.us, Bob Camp
writes:
You still come back to what killer Loran-C in the first place -
Who is going to use it?
No, I don't particularly think Loran-C is
Poul-Henning wrote:
That would make roll-out a matter not for governments, but for
airports, harbours and other interested parties, like for instance
DME.
Would this mean depending on private parties for precision timing and
positioning [using that particular system, of course]? If so, I'm
In message 20120305103136.7e0f511b...@karen.lavabit.com, Charles P. Steinmet
z writes:
Poul-Henning wrote:
That would make roll-out a matter not for governments, but for
airports, harbours and other interested parties, like for instance
DME.
Would this mean depending on private parties for
Poul-Henning wrote (regarding the possibility of advanced, private
Loran-like systems):
Well, that could be your own choice, you can tell your receiver
which transmitters you trust.
That presumes (i) substantial sophistication on the part of the user
and (ii) possession of data that would
In message 20120305113804.48fc411b...@karen.lavabit.com, Charles P. Steinmet
z writes:
Technical merit aside, I doubt there is any chance of getting
regulatory approval for such a system, at least in the US, for
practical and political reasons.
Indeed, it's absolutely out of the question, as
Poul-Henning wrote:
Thats why some people in the military is looking into a modern
more lightweight version of Tactical Loran for use when GPS is jammed.
That is a much easier thing -- our military/intelligence complex
(however oxymoronic that notion is) tries very hard to keep its
On 3/5/12 2:31 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Poul-Henning wrote:
That would make roll-out a matter not for governments, but for
airports, harbours and other interested parties, like for instance
DME.
Would this mean depending on private parties for precision timing and
positioning [using
On 3/5/12 3:45 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message20120305113804.48fc411b...@karen.lavabit.com, Charles P. Steinmet
z writes:
Technical merit aside, I doubt there is any chance of getting
regulatory approval for such a system, at least in the US, for
practical and political reasons.
On 3/5/12 6:19 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Poul-Henning wrote:
Thats why some people in the military is looking into a modern
more lightweight version of Tactical Loran for use when GPS is jammed.
That is a much easier thing -- our military/intelligence complex
(however oxymoronic that
An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be
able to rely on GPS for time synchronization!
John
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In message 4f54d075.6070...@febo.com, John Ackermann N8UR writes:
An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be
able to rely on GPS for time synchronization!
Well, define rely. If they're using a Cs and GPS-steer that when
there is good GPS, I don't see much of a
A light footprint LORAN is what I've been suggesting for several days.
As to putting it into private hands, there is a potential for massive
finmancial fraud in market arbitrage. It was only a couple of weeks ago
that this made headlines with GPS timing.
-John
=
In message
On 3/5/2012 10:13 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message4f54d075.6070...@febo.com, John Ackermann N8UR writes:
An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be
able to rely on GPS for time synchronization!
Well, define rely. If they're using a Cs and GPS-steer that
A woman is waiting outside of the operating room for news of her
husbands fate. After some hours of waiting a physician comes to her and
in a soft voice gives her the news that he has passed. The situation at
hand was that the paperwork was beyond the operating teams capabilities.
We will
and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
A light footprint LORAN is what I've been suggesting for several days.
As to putting it into private hands, there is a potential for massive
finmancial fraud in market arbitrage. It was only a couple of weeks ago
that this made headlines
The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per
second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would be more
complete but that is OK in 2012. In the old days it was to
expensive to put a complex computer
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
A light footprint LORAN is what I've been suggesting for several days.
As to putting it into private hands, there is a potential for massive
finmancial fraud in market arbitrage. It was only a couple of weeks ago
that this made headlines with GPS timing
Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.
-John
==
The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per
second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would
Reply to Keith Peshak from Chris Stout.
As of now, we don't currently have a schedule for when we will be back on-air.
Because we are testing precise timing capabilities under the CRADA, we are only
broadcasting from one station which is all that is necessary for disseminating
timing
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.
Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could
use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this.
I'd
5. Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous
radiopositioning using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of
Technology Jul, 25 2002: WO 2002/057806
-John
==
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
Already been done, and
5. Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous radiopositioning
using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Jul, 25
2002: WO 2002/057806
That is an incredibly interesting patent. Thanks for the reference.
Peter
K1PGV
On 03/05/2012 03:40 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be
able to rely on GPS for time synchronization!
There is nothing wrong with using GPS WHEN it works, but one has to
check if it is not reliable such that one can cut off the
05, 2012 2:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US
Reply to Keith Peshak from Chris Stout.
As of now, we don't currently have a schedule for when we will be back
on-air. Because we are testing precise timing capabilities under
Antonio wrote:
Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable
I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more likely
there is now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many
difficult preconditions (including Congressional action) are all met.
Best regards,
On 03/04/2012 10:02 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Antonio wrote:
Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable
I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more likely there
is now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many difficult
preconditions (including
With today's electronics and 'puters, a new system could be designed to
operate essentially without local staffing, IMO. The biggest problem would
be getting antennas with reasonable radiation efficiency at 100 kHz,
without using 1000' plus towers.
One option might be more, smaller, cheaper
Hi
The gotcha with a non compatible coding is cross chain interference. My guess
is that those who are currently running Loran-C would be a bit bothered if the
new system nuked there ability to navigate any time skywave propigation was
present. The current coding and repetition rates took a
Look at it from a politician's point of view:
Would you really want to admit that your government screwed up and
destroyed a working, but old, system, and now you find you need it as a
backup to GPS?
Or, would you rather build a shiney, new, state of the art system, which
just happend to be
In message 57034.12.6.201.2.1330897195.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors
ter writes:
One option might be more, smaller, cheaper stations.
At one point, a LORAN-X (for some value of X D) was proposed which
would use ~1kW transmitters with PRNG codes at 100kHz and give vastly
better results
Hi
You still come back to what killer Loran-C in the first place - Who is going to
use it?
Until somebody shuts down GPS in a big way, not a lot of drive for an
alternative. I not saying that is a well thought out situation. It is indeed
the position everybody has taken. It is a classic cost
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