Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

; > >> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 21:04:58 -0700 >> From: jimlux >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > >> On 7/25/16 6:55 AM, Bob Cam

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

ubject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >On 7/25/16 6:55 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If you go back far enough in time …. there is another alternative: > >Big rectifier bank, turning AC in

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

> On Jul 26, 2016, at 12:04 AM, jimlux wrote: > > > IBM mainframes used a similar scheme but I can't remember the details. Yes. We had 3 3090 ’s and they all incorporated multiple motor/generator units ( 3089 ) to g

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On 7/25/16 6:55 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you go back far enough in time …. there is another alternative: Big rectifier bank, turning AC into DC, often off of multiple phases or sources. Big DC motor running into a fairly large flywheel. AC generator (or in some cases DC

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:28:52 -0500 David wrote: > I have never seen one which did not use a class-D output with L-C > filtering. Total efficiency is in the 84 to 92 percent range. Actually, the better ones have 3 level or 5 level inverters (or even more). Ie their output stages can not only pro

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Brooke wrote: But a relay switched UPS, like mine, does nothing to the line waveform, so the Sola offers a lot of improvement. Since the Sola does not help getting a sine waveform, it may be better to put it on the input since that might make dropout detection more reliable? Instead of contin

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

tz To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Brooke wrote: > But a relay switched UPS, like mine, does nothing to the line waveform, > so the Sola offers a lot of improvement. > > Since the Sola does not help getting a s

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

The reason they call it a modified sine wave is that it is a square wave with the same peak and RMS voltages as a sine wave. Since the RMS value of a (bipolar) square wave is equal to its peak value, it has to include parts at zero or a lower voltage. Some inverters use additional voltage steps t

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

kb...@n1k.org said: > If you go back far enough in time …. there is another alternative: >Big rectifier bank, turning AC into DC, often off of multiple phases > or sources. >Big DC motor running into a fairly large flywheel. >AC generator (or in some cases DC generators

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab - APC Smart UPS 700

I let an older, well-aged GPSDO warm up overnight and then I ran a test with the UPS.  Attached were the PRS*, the GPSDO, and the 5370A.  I didn't notice anything when I removed power.  I did notice about a 450ps phase spike when I plugged the UPS back in some 640 seconds later.  But that was it

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Or the current version: Large AC motor driving a LARGE flywheel with an AC (and/or -48VDC) generator on the other side feeding a very large battery plant. If mains drops more than 1/2 cycle it connects the turbine and starts it up. We had a 5MW one at $OLD_GIG for feeding our supercomputer fac

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Chris: The APC RS1500 uses what they call modified sine wave, but I call modified square wave, i.e. it's a square wave with a couple of parts that are at zero volts. Don Lancaster promoted "Magic Sinewaves" where a pulse modulated waveform drives an H-bridge. The leading and trailing edges

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I have never seen one which did not use a class-D output with L-C filtering. Total efficiency is in the 84 to 92 percent range. These days they also include power factor correction on their line input so they can be used to apply power factor correction to any load. Refurbished ones are availabl

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bill: I have links to the Sola patents at: http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html#Patents The 1939 patent shows a single gap and the resonant circuit, but the current patent (number on Sola xformer label) shows two gaps and the resonant circuit. They specify up to a 3 ms dropout restoration w

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Charles is correct and most data centers and metrology laboratories operate from power produced by large versions of these systems i.e. From 50KW to megawatts generally backed by one or more generators to carry facility when utility power is not available Content by Scott Typos by Siri > On J

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Yes, "ferroresonant" is also called CVT. Typically rather than buying just the transformer you buy a box that has one in it but also some other components to clip spikes (some MOVs) and and LC low pass filter. I know it seems a saturated core might produce a non-sine wave but current CVTs have ve

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi If you go back far enough in time …. there is another alternative: Big rectifier bank, turning AC into DC, often off of multiple phases or sources. Big DC motor running into a fairly large flywheel. AC generator (or in some cases DC generators) running off of the shaf

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Chris wrote: I've never thought UPS were a good idea for anything but a computer that needs to shut down gracefully. For your use you need something that cleans up the AC mains power. A proper "online" (or "double conversion") UPS does just that. It always provides cleanly-generated sine-w

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

But then you may find that you can NEVER finish a test. The AC line is typically full of transients. I've never thought UPS were a good idea for anything but a computer that needs to shut down gracefully. For your use you need something that cleans up the AC mains power. The best ones have a

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

you could bring the horse to the well. On 7/24/2016 7:36 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Years ago I knew exactly how Sola regulators worked. That has faded, but what remains is that the regulation was done by varying the saturation of the core. That's why there is a slot in the laminations. I find

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: > So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep > cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a > power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell > me to ign

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

The PFC power supply architecture I had in mind uses a flyback inverter to regulate the input rail voltage for the output dc-dc converter stage. The flyback stage peak current is modulated by a sinewave. A feedback loop adjusts the effective amplitude of this sinusoidal modulation to regulate th

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Years ago I knew exactly how Sola regulators worked. That has faded, but what remains is that the regulation was done by varying the saturation of the core. That's why there is a slot in the laminations. I find it hard to believe that a partially saturated core can produce zero harmonics. In any e

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Are there some reference designs you can point to where this is a problem? Because all of the application notes and references designs I have checked so far have no requirements for input wave shape other than peak and to a lessor extent RMS voltage. The input power factor degrades with inputs wh

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

That is interesting, since the Sola device has a to the line frequency tuned tank circuit in it, thus the output should not have to many higher harmonics and should look reasonable close to sinusoidal see here: http://www.rdrelectronics.com/russ/jun16/vs2.PDF 73 K6UHN Alex On 7/24/2016 4:23

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

The PFC stage needs a line frequency sinewave reference, if this is produced by attenuating the line input, then it may not function well with badly distorted line input waveforms (modified sine, square wave etc).Phase locking a sinewave to the line input may be a better approach. Bruce O

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi David: Yes, the computer, monitor, and DSL modem, switch, answering machine &Etc were connected. I haven't remembered how to run the DSO in the short time the self test lasts. AC VRMS line= 117, AC VRMS UPS = 114. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernmen

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

t to be in the attic here in Texas. Bob - AE6RV.com GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Brooke Clarke To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ho

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:45:02 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Bob: > >The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. > (but not a half cycle of the line >frequency). > >I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup >UPS. (needed to replace

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bob: The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line frequency). I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries in the main unit and probably within a

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

if yo limit the Q you limit the effect also... by the way the Q is already limited by the ohmic resistance of your transformer coils. 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 7/8/2016 10:08 PM, David wrote: And I will add a high voltage power resistor to limit the Q. On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:12:53 -0400, you wrote:

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Yes indeed they do run a bit warm. You need a mounting location that gets them out of the way. Having them somewhere you can bump into them …. not good at all. The newer “toroid” designs are a bit quieter than the older versions. Bob > On Jul 9, 2016, at 2:41 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote: >

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

The minor down side is these resonant transformers acoustically hum and run hot. On the plus side they do clean up any kind of noise on the line. Rob, NC0B Sent from my iPad > On Jul 8, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > > > > Hi Bob: > > A resonate transformer may solve your probl

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

And I will add a high voltage power resistor to limit the Q. On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:12:53 -0400, you wrote: >Hi > >If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and >the C. > >Bob > >> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David wrote: >> >> I wonder how well a pair of high v

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

ecise Time and Frequency Measurement" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab OK, you pushed me over the edge. I ordered a Sola 63-23-210-8. Hopefully it'll do enough for most of the problems. Bob -

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and the C. Bob > On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David wrote: > > I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to > back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work > for removing

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work for removing power line glitches. They wouldn't do anything for voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though. Time to break out a couple of p

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Tim wrote: > I strongly disagree. > What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors * * * in the vicinity of your lab equipment. * * * not even necessarily in the same room * * * every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF develops and then the pow

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

That has been my experience over the last 25 odd years... __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/8/2016 5:37 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: > The usual problem is glitches on the on-site AC mains supply, and > properly designed and installed on-line UPS syst

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Bob wrote: OK, you pushed me over the edge. I ordered a Sola 63-23-210-8. Hum Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

You do what you can do... __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/8/2016 1:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having > a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. > > I strongly disagree. > > Tim

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

cy measurement Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. I strongly disagree. What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescen

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Best bet is to get 4 6v deep cycle batteries connect in series and connect a high quality power supply capable of supporting planned load and set output voltage to the selected 'float' voltage This will give you a setup which depending on batter rating could give you several days of backup power

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

: Bob Stewart Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Hi Bob: Just ordered a Sola SOLA 23-23-150-8 CONSTANT VOLTAGE TRANSFORMER 500VAon eBay for under $200 including shipping. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. I strongly disagree. What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors (e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a completel

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I also have had good results with various APC UPS systems. I typically have to replace the batteries in my UPS's and my stand alone backup batteries every 5 to 7 years or so. Units such as the HP105B and FTS1050 that feature backup DC power inputs simplify the provision of long term backup

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

m/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Brooke Clarke To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Hi Bob: A resonate transformer may solve your problem.  I added one to my

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

In message <5846a3c3-16d4-28ae-af9c-743ff895b...@triconet.org>, Wes writes: >Capacity wise this was actually overkill for my application as the >charger could supply the total load. If you go the LVDC route, your charger should be able to supply at least 150% of your full load, so that

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bob: A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Th

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

SDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > > From: Clay Autery > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and floa

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

David wrote: This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do not know how suitable it would be and it is more than I paid although about twice as powerful: http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and recommend them hig

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I have for years powered much of my ham station with a 90AH SLA maintained with a homemade "smart" charger. I used an analog Astron 35A power supply (RS-35M) for its raw DC and series pass transistors with its regulator board replaced with a (now obsolete) AA Engineering smart charger board. Th

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Some UPSes like my old Powerware 9120 monitor the AC line condition for various things and keep a log but I do not know if that would be sufficient for what you have in mind. On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 01:54:58 + (UTC), you wrote: >So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:23:39 -0400, you wrote: >David wrote: > >> This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do >> not know how suitable it would be and it is more >> than I paid although about twice as powerful: >> >> http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx > >I have a fleet of its b

[time-nuts] The home time-lab

A simple and rather effective power line monitor: get an old cheap laptop with some sort of sound input capabilities with at least a semi-usable battery, an AC output wall wart, and a couple of divider resistors. Record the AC line as audio during your experiments. You can analyze the aud

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

PSDOs/info From: Poul-Henning Kamp To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ; Hal Murray Cc: Bob Stewart Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab In message <20160708041855.562d7406...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net&

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Am 08.07.2016 um 08:52 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency wise. I keep wondering how this tiny transformer in the SR620 can power that baking tray full of ECL. regards

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

i...@blackmountainforge.com said: > There is a company in the USA that manufactures a product called > BatteryTender - excellent float charger and maintainer. Costco sells them > for $40 How do those types of chargers work when there is a load? It's not the typical "float" there is also signifi

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:31:58 -0400, you wrote: >If you decide to go the UPS route, don’t bother with anything that does not >produce a sine wave >output. Modern power factor corrected stuff is a lot happier with sine waves >than with weird looking >semi-square wave stuff. Active power factor co

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

.net > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > > b...@evoria.net said: >> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep >> cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the p

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

data. Bob  --- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Clay Autery To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO ba

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

In message <20160708041855.562d7406...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Mu rray writes: >b...@evoria.net said: >> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient design. The 5V rails are regulated down

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > I recommend rigging up something to operate from storage > batteries for the > rest, thus eliminating the power line temporarily. > > Jeremy > N6WFO > > &g

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

-- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Hal Murray To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: Hal Murray ; hmur...@megapathdsl.net Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS... ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to power the load when on mains. __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (31

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

b...@evoria.net said: > So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep > cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter?  At this point in the process, a > power line monitor is looking like a good solution.  At least it would tell > me to ignore the test results. Yes, you

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Bob Camp To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Hi Have you been through the full alignm

[time-nuts] The home time-lab

I've found that the HP-5065A rubidium makes for a pretty decent power line monitor. Mine will trip the "continuous operation" indicator on power glitches that most power line monitors ignore (including some rather high dollar ones). ___

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

b Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency > measurement > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > 1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking > at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped co

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

b Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab 1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi As has been mentioned a few times before …. the best approach is to run batteries to supply the gear in question off of DC power. Running everything off of it’s own battery may not be practical if you have gear that is looking for 12V, 15V, 18V, 24V, 28V, 48V and -12V. The practical answer i

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

b...@evoria.net said: > So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even > understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. A UPS has 2 major properties. One is the amount of power it can put out. The other is the battery size which translates into how long it will last. T

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

GPSDOs/info From: Tim Shoppa To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab 1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking at 30MHz, such that a

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

[time-nuts] The home time-lab b...@evoria.net said: > So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even > understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. A UPS has 2 major properties.  One is the amount of power it can put out.  The other is the battery

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive disruption, would cause a 35ns phase jump? Related thread: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-May/098028.html Tim N3QE On Thu, Jul 7, 2

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I recommend rigging up something to operate from storage batteries for the rest, thus eliminating the power line temporarily. Jeremy N6WFO On Thursday, July 7, 2016, Bob Stewart wrote: > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my > testing. > > I decided to run a

[time-nuts] The home time-lab

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, ther