Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Dean Snyder
Philippe Verdy wrote at 10:15 PM on Wednesday, November 5, 2003: >If it's not in the written text, it is not implied by the writer. If this were true, based on the fact that writers wrote very few of them, we would be faced with the implication that there were very few vowels indeed in the old He

RE: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Peter Constable
> But we Hebrew "experts" want our proposals to be reviewed in advance by > UTC members and others who understand the broad scope of Unicode... There have been several such people subscribed to the Hebrew list. Rambling verbose discussions are making some of them leave however. Peter Peter Con

[offline] RE: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Peter Constable
age- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:54 PM > To: Unicode Mailing List > Subject: Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation > marks > > Gads, how I wish there were a Hebre

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Peter Kirk
I agree with you here, Doug. I am copying this to the Hebrew list in the hope that those on both lists will follow this kind of procedure. Or does anyone have strong objections? On 06/11/2003 08:30, Doug Ewell wrote: ... Peter Kirk responded to Michael a few messages later: Please keep the

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Andrew C. West
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:30:24 -0800, "Doug Ewell" wrote: > > I can't help thinking that other specialized lists, such as those > for bidi and CJK, were created to resolve this exact type of problem. CJK list ? Now if only there was a list of Unicode lists ...

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Doug Ewell
Michael Everson wrote: > At 15:53 -0800 2003-11-05, Doug Ewell wrote: >> Gads, how I wish there were a Hebrew-specific list where these >> protracted Hebrew-specific discussions could take place. > > There is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know. I was being facetious. Peter Kirk responded to Michael a

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Peter Kirk
On 06/11/2003 05:14, Michael Everson wrote: At 04:55 -0800 2003-11-06, Peter Kirk wrote: We need to work towards some real proposals for improving Hebrew support, not just chat. But who is going to know about these proposals and assess them if they are not on the Hebrew list, and if discussion

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Michael Everson
At 04:55 -0800 2003-11-06, Peter Kirk wrote: We need to work towards some real proposals for improving Hebrew support, not just chat. But who is going to know about these proposals and assess them if they are not on the Hebrew list, and if discussion of Hebrew is not allowed on the main list? P

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Peter Kirk
On 06/11/2003 02:42, Michael Everson wrote: There is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just unsubscribed from it because I just can't track the volume of what's being discussed there. Understandable, but sad. When new people join a discussion like that they often have a lot of questions which need answering

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-06 Thread Michael Everson
At 15:53 -0800 2003-11-05, Doug Ewell wrote: Gads, how I wish there were a Hebrew-specific list where these protracted Hebrew-specific discussions could take place. There is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just unsubscribed from it because I just can't track the volume of what's being discussed there. -- Mi

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-05 Thread Doug Ewell
Gads, how I wish there were a Hebrew-specific list where these protracted Hebrew-specific discussions could take place. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-05 Thread Philippe Verdy
From: "Jony Rosenne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Philippe Verdy wrote: > > > In fact, even spelling errors are often made on purpose, and > > wanted by their authors. What seems a spelling error at one > > time often happens to become a normal spelling for these > > words (look at the many abreviated fo

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-11-04 Thread Philippe Verdy
From: "Peter Kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The only issue is the > medial meteg, which can be solved most simply by defining a new medial > meteg character (or variation selector wiith meteg) which always > combines with an adjacent hataf vowel. According to Chapter 15 of the Unicode Standard:

RE: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-31 Thread Peter Constable
Folks, we should not be cross-posting on these threads. The Hebrew list was created to get these long Hebrew threads off the Unicode list; I think they should stay there. Peter Peter Constable Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies Microsoft Windows Division

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-31 Thread Philippe Verdy
After careful analysis of the rendering versus canonical ordering problem of dagesh/rafe/varika after shin/sin dots, and before vowels, I may conclude that the sil.org proposal is completely not needed for rendering, as the existing encoding already complies with Biblical Hebrew with exactly the sa

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-31 Thread Peter Kirk
On 30/10/2003 21:15, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: Peter Kirk wrote: On 28/10/2003 18:49, Philippe Verdy wrote: I just finished an Excel speadsheet that shows the Hebrew composition model, and all the problems caused by the canonical order of Hebrew diacritics. In summary, most problems come from c

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-30 Thread Mark E. Shoulson
Peter Kirk wrote: On 28/10/2003 18:49, Philippe Verdy wrote: I just finished an Excel speadsheet that shows the Hebrew composition model, and all the problems caused by the canonical order of Hebrew diacritics. In summary, most problems come from consonnant modifiers which have a combining clas

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread Philippe Verdy
From: "Peter Kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On 29/10/2003 10:46, John Hudson wrote: > > > While we're about it, we could propose a spacing, non-breaking ELIDED > > CHARACTER for use in ketiv/qere where combining marks need to be > > applied to empty space within a word. > > How would this differ from

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread Peter Kirk
On 29/10/2003 10:46, John Hudson wrote: At 10:26 AM 10/29/2003, Philippe Verdy wrote: The problem I see here is that ZWJ is not intended to create ligatures between diacritics, only between clusters that would otherwise still be a single combining sequence. Normally CGJ would have fitted better

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread Peter Kirk
On 29/10/2003 10:26, Philippe Verdy wrote: ... The problem I see here is that ZWJ is not intended to create ligatures between diacritics, only between clusters that would otherwise still be a single combining sequence. Normally CGJ would have fitted better there, but this conflicts with the inten

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread John Hudson
At 10:26 AM 10/29/2003, Philippe Verdy wrote: The problem I see here is that ZWJ is not intended to create ligatures between diacritics, only between clusters that would otherwise still be a single combining sequence. Normally CGJ would have fitted better there, but this conflicts with the intent

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread John Hudson
At 10:26 AM 10/29/2003, Philippe Verdy wrote: In the sil.org proposal, the medial meteg is missing, but not the right and left meteg, as they are encoded within the same class and their order is preserved when attached to a vowel. It is not missing, per se. It was presumed that the medial meteg wo

Re: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew composition model, with cantillation marks

2003-10-29 Thread Philippe Verdy
From: "John Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > At 08:17 AM 10/29/2003, Peter Kirk wrote: > > >Normally meteg is positioned below and to the left of any other low > >centred mark. Less frequently it is positioned to the right of a low > >centred mark. But it is always to the left of a low right mark i.e.