Re: Bug/Enhancement request - Document Compatibility Submission Page/Service - WAS: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi :) Nicely done! :) It's good to see it stirred up a bit of debate and interesting to hear the bug-squad (or whatever they are called here) had just recently discussed the issue. I tend to agree that i think people should register with the bug-reporting thing before being allowed to upload atta

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 2013-11-14 5:56 AM, Philipp Weissenbacher wrote: Freedesktop.org Bugzilla log-in page (click "Log in top right hand corner) -> click "Search" -> Select "LibreOffice" in the "Product" drop down and search you heart out. OR Use the Search field in the previous

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

> How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone? >>> >> > This is a list of all LibreOffice bugs >> > specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product= >> LibreOffice&content=>. >> > > thanks, but I didn't a

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/13/13 4:34 AM, Pedro wrote: Sigh. I give up. Me too. What's sad and disappointing is, I really wanted LO to work for me. Rather feels like all the time I've spent with it, is ultimately wasted, since it won't work for me. No replies to this are necessary, as soon this post appears, I

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 03:34:54 -0800 (PST) Pedro wrote: > You are right. You can't tell people what to do. That is how > voluntary work is done. I'm happy so long as nobody is going around complaining that the devs are a bunch of lazy, arrogant anarchists who ignore users in order to do whatever th

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:55:07 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > You and John have missed my point. > > Features vs. bugs is irrelevant in what I'm saying. No, it's not. There are limited resources, and both bugs and features compete for those resources. Because if some features are not implemented, the

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Sigh. I give up. You are right. You can't tell people what to do. That is how voluntary work is done. And there is no point in applying this to the whole community. Sorry for wasting your time. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-result

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:45:24 -0800 (PST) Pedro wrote: > You are missing the voluntary concept. Voluntary doesn't mean that > you do what you feel like when you feel like. It means that you are > volunteering your time and/or skills for some project. Someone > coordinates the tasks no matter how u

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:30:23 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > >> Then... You don't want them as a customer/user, nothing more than > >> that. Now, if you were building your own business, is that > >> something you want to be doing, driving customers away? Actually, if you are building your own busin

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:10:41 +0100, Italo Vignoli a écrit : > On 13/11/13 00:45, Pedro wrote: > > > Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's > > hard do engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are > > not developers and therefore secondary in this proje

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 13/11/13 00:45, Pedro wrote: > Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's hard do > engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are not developers > and therefore secondary in this project... I disagree. I am not a developer, but I have never been reminded

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 6:35 PM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/12/2013 6:24 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/2013 6:24 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to co

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, bu

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 3:24 PM, Paul wrote: On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:44:50 -0700 John Meyer wrote: On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Here's the fault with this logic. I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for illustrating my point. 50 people have issues with bug A. 5 people have

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 4:45 PM, Pedro wrote: Hi Paul Paul-6 wrote Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he wants to" is exactly the problem IMO. Sure, but it is a problem with no solution. Unless you have blackmail material, or bribery material (such as, say, a salary), there

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

snowshed wrote > Maybe there should be a queue, and fixed on a FIFO basis. Are either of > my posted bugs, or the ones that I listed in another post debilitating? > No. Would I expect mine to be fixed before X number of debilitating > bugs? Not in a million years. But they need to be fixed

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Paul Paul-6 wrote >> Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he >> wants to" is exactly the problem IMO. > Sure, but it is a problem with no solution. Unless you have blackmail > material, or bribery material (such as, say, a salary), there is very > little you can do

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have the knowledge to fix the

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:23:31 -0800 (PST) Pedro wrote: > First, it's not *my* bug. The bug is the software. The software is > not mine. Well said, and very true. > Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he > wants to" is exactly the problem IMO. Sure, but it is a proble

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:26:25 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > Maybe there should be a queue, and fixed on a FIFO basis. That would be a terrible idea, at least without some prioritisation. Otherwise you'd have periods of just catching up on myriad small bugs while big issues languish. > But, if you c

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:26:25 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > What told me I was being ignored, and essentially my issues were not > critical, is the fact they were never assigned to anyone for fixing, > and labeled as such. So you're upset because your issues were not considered "critical"? > Don't

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:44:50 -0700 John Meyer wrote: > On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote: > > > > Here's the fault with this logic. > > > > I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for > > illustrating my point. > > > > 50 people have issues with bug A. 5 people have issues wi

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:02:08 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > Changes are one animal, fixes are another. Sometimes (often?) a fix entails a change... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have the knowledge to fix them. I didn't expect those problems to go to t

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Here's the fault with this logic. I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for illustrating my point. 50 people have issues with bug A. 5 people have issues with bug B. Extrapolate... 5 people with bug C, 5 with D, all the way though Z

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 5:51 AM, Paul wrote: I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO developers work on nothing except what they want to work on. I'm pretty sure that that is very false. They work on LO because they want to work on LO, and they probably choose what to work on

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi, Michael, On 11/12/13 3:53 AM, Michael Meeks wrote: Hi Ken, On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 11:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have the knowledge to fix them. I di

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Tanstaafl, LibreOffice is using freedesktop.org infrastructure for bug management software and code repository. How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone? > This is a list of all LibreOffice bugs

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi :) Something that often annoys me is that we seem to ignore all the work of all the devs who are paid to work on LibreOffice. I thought something like 10%-20% of devs are employed by various companies, governments and other organisations? The advantage for the organisations, companies and gove

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > CC'ing the website list because it is about the website, but I'm not > subscribed, so please CC me on replies if you really want to discuss this > complaint. I've also cc'd the QA team (who manage/work on the bugtracker, including Rob Snelders,

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Charles Tanstaafl wrote > That would help for that one issue, but I still don't have a clue how to > log into the bug system and work with bugs... You are right that the current documentation won't take you there :) Go to https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ and click on Log In (second item from t

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 2013-11-12 9:53 AM, Philipp Weissenbacher wrote: Hi Tanstaafl, LibreOffice is using freedesktop.org infrastructure for bug management software and code repository. Ok, this doesn't help me any, but ok... ;) How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone? This is

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote: > After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I > wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have > the knowledge to fix them. I didn't expect those problems to go to the > head of the line. But I *did*

Bug/Enhancement request - Document Compatibility Submission Page/Service - WAS: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 2013-11-12 8:53 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone? Ok, so I just decided to go ahead and go through the submission process, and afterwards was finally able to search. I didn't find any similar bugs, so I added a single comment to co

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Paul, Just completing Pedro's answers inline... Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:23:31 -0800 (PST), Pedro a écrit : > Paul-6 wrote > > I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that > > the LO developers work on nothing except what they want to work on. > > I didn't mean to say that. >

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

CC'ing the website list because it is about the website, but I'm not subscribed, so please CC me on replies if you really want to discuss this complaint. On 2013-11-12 5:53 AM, Michael Meeks wrote: The problem of course is that there is no queue of bugs-to-fix. We try to prioritize issues, so

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Paul-6 wrote > I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO > developers work on nothing except what they want to work on. I didn't mean to say that. I'm aware that some developers work on whatever is needed and fix the most urgent bugs/regressions. But out of 300 develo

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO developers work on nothing except what they want to work on. I'm pretty sure that that is very false. They work on LO because they want to work on LO, and they probably choose what to work on based on at least the following:

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Stefan Weigel wrote > Am 12.11.2013 11:46, schrieb Michael Meeks: > >> [ given the vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs. >> time-to-fix (5 man days avg) ] > > ...in correlation with 1 developer investing 5 days to fix it vs. > maybe hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands of use

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Servus Micheal, true, what you are saying, but one little thing: Am 12.11.2013 11:46, schrieb Michael Meeks: > [ given the vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs. > time-to-fix (5 man days avg) ] ...in correlation with 1 developer investing 5 days to fix it vs. maybe hundreds, thousands o

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Urmas, On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 05:35 +0700, Urmas wrote: > Then why does the LO site not feature a warning on a front page: "User, > you are ... So - trying to condense something positive out of this; it sounds like we should have something (perhaps in the BSA) that explains to newcomers

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Ken, On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 11:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: > After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues. I > wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have > the knowledge to fix them. I didn't expect those problems to go to the > head of

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Ken snowshed wrote > But, basic things should work right. In my list I have here, but have > not tested in 4.x.x You are right. It is sometimes amazing how simple things don't work or stop working (regressions)... But overall they tend to get better. I sincerely recommend that you give vers

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Jim James E. Lang wrote > Pardon my ignorance. I don't even know what Nabble or gmane are. If they > are "social media" then this old geezer doesn't participate and that's by > choice. Mailing lists, product specific forums, and even (to a limited > extent) IRC channels are fine. Nabble is an

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi :) If a troll gets banned they usually just find another new name or even go so far as to set-up a new free email account The only ways that seem to work are 1. To let them know their behaviour is being (possibly) misconstrued as unhelpful and unfriendly 2. avoid taking any notice of them whe

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:17:31 +0100, Alexander Thurgood a écrit : > Le 11/11/13 12:19, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : > > > Hi Charles, > > > Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we > > discussed the survey on the marketing and project's list :-) > >> > > Gladly, but the

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

[mailto:charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org] Sent: Monday, November > 11, 2013 4:09 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results > of the survey > > Hello Ken, > > > Ken Springer a écrit : > >Hi, Charle

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le 11/11/13 12:19, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hi Charles, > Next time I'm sure you can join us in the weeks during which we > discussed the survey on the marketing and project's list :-) >> Gladly, but the main reason I'm not on, or only rarely follow, the marketing list, is because of what I

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Please can somebody ban him for bad language? On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:35:01 +0700 "Urmas" wrote: > "Charles-H. Schulz": > > Also, it might be useful to remember that developers tend to > contribute because they only want to and find a particular interest in > doing so. Maybe it's for a plain ol

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Ken Springer wrote:. > >On 11/10/13 9:11 PM, Ady wrote: >> >> There are many ways for users to communicate: LibreOffice forum, Ask >> LibreOffice, several LibreOffice mailing lists, Nabble, wiki, >> Bugzilla, and several irc channels. The problem is, IMHO, they are >> sometimes "too many" and "t

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

"Charles-H. Schulz": Also, it might be useful to remember that developers tend to contribute because they only want to and find a particular interest in doing so. Maybe it's for a plain old business interest, but when you're a volunteer developer, which is the case of the largest majority of deve

RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

. It didn't have the check boxes I wanted!!! -Original Message- From: Charles-H. Schulz [mailto:charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:09 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi, Charles, On 11/11/13 2:09 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Ken, Ken Springer a écrit : Hi, Charles, On 11/11/13 4:19 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Alex, Le Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:05:46 +0100, Alex Thurgood a écrit : Le 10/11/2013 19:46, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hi Charles,

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/11/13 1:18 PM, Paul wrote: On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:33:43 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS! It's important to me. If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for you, or work on it yourself. If not, then unf

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Paul, everyone, Le 2013-11-11 21:18, Paul a écrit : On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:33:43 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS! It's important to me. If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for you, or work on it yours

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hello Ken, Ken Springer a écrit : >Hi, Charles, > >On 11/11/13 4:19 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: >> Hello Alex, >> >> Le Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:05:46 +0100, >> Alex Thurgood a écrit : >> >>> Le 10/11/2013 19:46, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : >>> >>> Hi Charles, >>> >>> Whilst I appreciate the effort

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi, Charles, On 11/11/13 4:19 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Alex, Le Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:05:46 +0100, Alex Thurgood a écrit : Le 10/11/2013 19:46, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hi Charles, Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the objective behind it, I too, must

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:33:43 -0700 Ken Springer wrote: > What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important. BS! > It's important to me. If it's important to you, you can fund a developer to work on it for you, or work on it yourself. If not, then unfortunately the developer is doin

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Overall, a +2, Ady. Comments interspersed below. On 11/10/13 9:11 PM, Ady wrote: Hello, As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be interested by my initial analysis: http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/11/13 2:30 AM, Michael Seeks wrote: Hi Urmas, So - I don't really understand your mail, which is a shame. On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 07:23 +0700, Urmas wrote: The only way users can contribute is when they are paying. Surely you're a user - and you contribute with bug filing

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Urmas, So - I don't really understand your mail, which is a shame. On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 07:23 +0700, Urmas wrote: > The only way users can contribute is when they are paying. Surely you're a user - and you contribute with bug filing, triage, and other QA things which are much

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hello Alex, Le Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:05:46 +0100, Alex Thurgood a écrit : > Le 10/11/2013 19:46, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : > > Hi Charles, > > Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the > objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was not worded > in a way i

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le 10/11/2013 19:46, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hi Charles, Whilst I appreciate the effort in designing such a survey and the objective behind it, I too, must admit that the survey was not worded in a way in which I felt comfortable responding. Indeed, it seemed to be distinctly biased towar

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

"Charles-H. Schulz": The only way users can contribute is when they are paying. If a developer is paid for non-user-related applications, it will have the ubiquitous opensource mentality: "I'm a GOD and you insolent worm will crawl on all fours at my feet because it pleases me to do so". Obvio