Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

Thanks Dan! On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:47 AM Dan Heidinga wrote: And I'm unclear on why the ephemeral information presentation is > prefered to the Platonic meaning? > Indeed I've gotten this feedback before too. My response was that it's not so much that one is "preferred", as that there just

Re: [External] : Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

- Original Message - > From: "Brian Goetz" > To: "Remi Forax" > Cc: "Kevin Bourrillion" , "valhalla-spec-experts" > > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 1:57:28 AM > Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

> From: "Kevin Bourrillion" > To: "Remi Forax" > Cc: "valhalla-spec-experts" > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 4:17:19 AM > Subject: Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation > On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 6:23 PM Remi Forax < [ mailto:fo...@uni

128bits value type and VarHande.compareAndSet() Was: Objects vs. values, the continuation

> From: "Brian Goetz" > To: "Dan Heidinga" > Cc: "Kevin Bourrillion" , "valhalla-spec-experts" > > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 4:59:14 PM > Subject: Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation >>> The fact that th

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

The fact that these are "small" (at most 64 bits) is incidental, not essential; introducing a new quadruple type would not destabilize our concept of a primitive value. If we can tip the user's mental model so that they believe "small is good" for B3 values, then we aid them in hitting the swe

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

Hi Kevin, A question about the "Values" subsection of the "Model" section. You draw a distinction between the Platonic value and values as ephemeral pieces of information. > A value is less than all that! It's just an ephemeral piece of information > being communicated directly from some progra

Re: [External] : Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

I think what is missing from our presentation — and likely key to succeeding — is how to describe “compound value” in a way that feels like a thing. Well, a `double` is already a compound value that feels like a thing. Java just hides the internal structure instead of having us access d.exponen

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 11:58 AM Brian Goetz wrote: I think what is missing from our presentation — and likely key to > succeeding — is how to describe “compound value” in a way that feels like a > thing. > Well, a `double` is already a compound value that feels like a thing. Java just hides the

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 6:23 PM Remi Forax wrote: As we discussed earlier, there are two approaches, one is to say that > instance of class = object | value > the other is to say that > instance of class = object = reference object | immediate object > > I prefer the later to the former, bec

Re: [External] : Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

I agree totally, the former are semantic properties and the latter is a side effect of representation. But that doesn’t help us much, because if people assume that these have the same finial field safety / integrity properties as reference objects, they will be in for a painful surprise. So th

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

> From: "Remi Forax" > To: "Kevin Bourrillion" > Cc: "valhalla-spec-experts" > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 12:23:32 AM > Subject: Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation >> From: "Kevin Bourrillion" >> To: "valhalla

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

> From: "Brian Goetz" > To: "Kevin Bourrillion" > Cc: "valhalla-spec-experts" > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 5:57:57 PM > Subject: Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation > Overall I find a lot to like about this presentation. I’m still a

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

> From: "Kevin Bourrillion" > To: "valhalla-spec-experts" > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 12:38:12 AM > Subject: Objects vs. values, the continuation > I'd like to remind everyone about this (self-important-sounding) document I > shared some months

Re: Objects vs. values, the continuation

Overall I find a lot to like about this presentation. I’m still a little iffy about whether we can redefine the letters o-b-j-e-c-t in this way, but that is largely a “syntax” reaction to your statements; the substance of the statements sounds about right. I especially like this bit: The way

Objects vs. values, the continuation

I'd like to remind everyone about this (self-important-sounding) document I shared some months ago: Data in Java programs: a basic conceptual model I may have undersold it a bit last time. True, it's not the