Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Hi all, Thanks for the replies. Based on the feedback here, we've decided to host our branch of WebKit at: http://src.chromium.org/multivm/trunk/webkit. We'll use this branch to try to address the technical and maintenance issues you've brought up. Cheers, Anton, Pavel, and Vijay On Mon, Dec

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Dominic Cooney wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: >> >> Web Content Engine The project's primary focus is content deployed on >> the World Wide Web, using standards-based technologies such as HTML, CSS, >> JavaScript and the DOM. >> --Olive

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:53 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:49 PM, Dominic Cooney wrote: > > > Those bindings are different because the code that uses them is not > activated from web pages. Looking at the specific posted patc

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:49 PM, Dominic Cooney wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > >> >> On Dec 6, 2011, at 2:55 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: >> >> > Good day, everyone! >> > >> > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear en

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:53 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:49 PM, Dominic Cooney wrote: >> >> Those bindings are different because the code that uses them is not >> activated from web pages. Looking at the specific posted patches, those >> changes seem necessary to support acti

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Dec 6, 2011, at 11:49 PM, Dominic Cooney wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 2:55 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: > > > Good day, everyone! > > > > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > > but we're not proposing a n

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > On Dec 6, 2011, at 2:55 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: > > > Good day, everyone! > > > > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > > but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a > > patch which all

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Dec 6, 2011, at 2:55 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: > Good day, everyone! > > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a > patch which allows others runtimes to run along with JS in the > browser. > > Of

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On 12/6/11 4:23 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote: > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a > patch which allows others runtimes to run along with JS in the > browser. and they mostly replied to that

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: > Thanks a lot, Jarred. > > We're fine w/ hosting in other repo (but we'll be happier to live > close to the WebKit). What would you suggest as a measure of success > for this extra-repo branch? > I think that's a fair question. Based on curre

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Thanks a lot, Jarred. We're fine w/ hosting in other repo (but we'll be happier to live close to the WebKit). What would you suggest as a measure of success for this extra-repo branch? yours, anton. On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Jarred Nicholls wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Anton

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Good day, Zoltan, On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote: > Hi Anton, > >> Of course, we're doing this because of our work on Dart, but our >> intent was to solicit a feedback from the WebKit community if there is >> any interest in supporting runtimes additional to JS (and not JS +

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Anton Muhin wrote: > Good day, everyone! > > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a > patch which allows others runtimes to run along with JS in the > browser. > >

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

> > Could you post a complete patch of your multi-vm changes to a WebKit > bug? I final chromium's diff viewer very difficult to use. > Multi-vm changes broken into 4 patches: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73897 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73899 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Hi Anton, > I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, > but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a > patch which allows others runtimes to run along with JS in the > browser. and they mostly replied to that (including some solution ideas like c

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Good day, everyone! I am sorry if it didn't sound clear enough in our original message, but we're not proposing a new language support, but we're proposing a patch which allows others runtimes to run along with JS in the browser. Of course, we're doing this because of our work on Dart, but our in

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

No. People are using EcmaScript on the web. They have languages that compile to EcmaScript as an intermediate language. Dart could also do this (emscripten demonstrates that raw C can be compiled to EcmaScript), so if people wished they could do that. These are also not a significant proport

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

> It's not quite true that multiple languages are exposed to the web. One > Turing-complete language is exposed, and any Turing-complete language can > be compiled to any other Turing-complete language. The fact that some > developers compile their favorite languages to JS doesn't mean that we > sh

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

It's not quite true that multiple languages are exposed to the web. One Turing-complete language is exposed, and any Turing-complete language can be compiled to any other Turing-complete language. The fact that some developers compile their favorite languages to JS doesn't mean that we should su

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > The issue here isn't "can we make multiple vms live in webkit" it's "can we > expose multiple languages to the web", to the former i say obviously as we > already do, to the latter I say that we don't want to. People are already using multipl

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Yes, we will upload this to a WebKit bug shortly. Cheers, Vijay On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Eric Seidel wrote: > Could you post a complete patch of your multi-vm changes to a WebKit > bug?  I final chromium's diff viewer very difficult to use. > > Regardless of whether this is good for the

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Geoffrey Garen wrote: > > We're creating a branch in order to demonstrate that it's useful and that > > it does not negatively impact hackability or performance. > > It hadn't occurred to me to view the goals of the WebKit project as applying > only to trunk, a

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

I think there needs to be a compelling reason for a branch to exist (see the 'not an academic exercise'(or whatever) rule). Let's say we have a feature X, where X would be a sufficiently complex feature to make working in trunk risky, and maybe even not possible (for example you could try to all

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Oliver Hunt wrote: > > As the 90s demonstrated such "features" are bad for developers, and bad > for the open web. This may not be apparent to people who have not spent > years working in the environment but random additions frequently cause > significant pain down

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Previous branches have been used to bring up interestingly complicated features, or features that had the potential to cause dramatic stability issues during their early work (such as the old svg-experimental branch). This project appear to be largely a make work project as it's already possibl

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

I agree with Peter here. It appears to me that having a WebKit branch to experiment a new feature will help us making an informed decision as to whether we want to accept patches or not for the feature better than looking at two giant patches posted on chromium.org. Preferably, Vijay also file a b

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Geoffrey Garen wrote: > > We're creating a branch in order to demonstrate that it's useful and > that it does not negatively impact hackability or performance. > > It hadn't occurred to me to view the goals of the WebKit project as > applying only to trunk, and not

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Hi Vijay. > I don't think we're inconsistent with the goals. I'm reading "adopted into > WebKit" to mean checked into WebKit trunk. That's not what we're trying to > do right now. We're creating a branch in order to demonstrate that it's > useful and that it does not negatively impact hackab

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Could you post a complete patch of your multi-vm changes to a WebKit bug? I final chromium's diff viewer very difficult to use. Regardless of whether this is good for the web or not, some of your multi-vm changes may be nice to have in WebCore. -eric On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Geoffrey Ga

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On 12/5/11 3:18 PM, Brent Fulgham wrote: As I've matured (or perhaps become more curmudgeonly), I now find greater satisfaction in systems that "just work". Minimizing the number of variables that come into play when rendering pages just seems like a smart approach. Consider also the massive shif

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

> On Dec 5, 2011, at 1:22 PM, Vijay Menon wrote: > At a high-level, the idea is pretty simple.  We want to be able to run > another VM along a JS one.  For example, if we see a Dart script on a web > page, we want the Dart VM to be able to handle it.  If we see a JS script, At one time I was very

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Oliver, I could say the same about GLSL, but it's a huge help in my work, so I won't. The proposal is to better enable multiple VMs. Their work would lower the costs of introducing Python. It -may- help with LLVM integration to the DOM. I can hope. -Charles On Dec 5, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Oliver

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

What is the benefit to the project in exposing an additional (non standardized) language to the web? All the bindings that webkit currently provides to are either standardized EcmaScript or platform specific bindings used by native code developers embedding webkit. Adding an additional web fac

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Hi Per, At a high-level, the idea is pretty simple. We want to be able to run another VM along a JS one. For example, if we see a Dart script on a web page, we want the Dart VM to be able to handle it. If we see a JS script, we want the JS one to handle it. Similarly, if an event listener on a

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Geoffrey Garen wrote: > Looking at http://www.webkit.org/projects/goals.html, I see: > Goals > …. > Hackability > To make rapid progress possible, we try to keep the code relatively easy > to understand…. > > Non-Goals > …. > WebKit is an engineering project not a

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

On 12/05/2011 09:26 AM, Vijay Menon wrote: We’re planning to create a multi-vm branch on webkit.org to experiment with this idea. Our goal with this branch is to (a) demonstrate the above points and (b) show that we can do this without degrading JavaScript performance or the

Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Looking at http://www.webkit.org/projects/goals.html, I see: Goals …. Hackability To make rapid progress possible, we try to keep the code relatively easy to understand…. Non-Goals …. WebKit is an engineering project not a science project. For new features to be adopted into WebKit, we strongly p

[webkit-dev] WebKit branch to support multiple VMs (e.g., Dart)

Hi all, Many languages compile to JavaScript today to run on the web. As alternative, we’ve been experimenting with enabling different language runtimes in WebKit to run in web pages alongside JavaScript. This could be used to support languages like Python, Java, Ruby, Lua, or - what inspired us