Re: [whatwg] colspan="0"

On Nov 4, 2006, at 1:53 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote: None of Opera 9.02, Firefox 2.0, IE7 and Safari 2.0.4 implement colspan="0" as specified in HTML 4.01. Trident, Presto and WebKit at least agree on what to do with it: they treat it like colspan="1". I suggest that only positive integers be co

Re: [whatwg] Space characters

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, Henri Sivonen wrote: > > Is there a reason why the definition of space characters does not match > the XML 1.0 and RELAX NG definition of white space (space, tab, CR, LF) > but also includes (line tabulation and form feed)? Is the deviation from > XML 1.0 needed for backwards

Re: [whatwg] JSON encoding

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006, Alfonso Baqueiro wrote: > > > > Assuming the thread is about introducing a way to convert a JS object > > into a JSON representation, then I would encourage you to contact the > > ECMAScript committee. Adding features to JavaScript is out of scope > > for the WHATWG specs. >

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On 6 Nov 2006, at 2:53AM, Elliotte Harold wrote: > The URL timed out when I tried to use [Sivonen's] validator You may want to try the following (the results seem to be similar): http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcafe.elharo.com%2Fweb%2Fmokka%2F -- Øistein E. Andersen

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Henri Sivonen wrote: http://cafe.elharo.com/web/mokka/ http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fcafe.elharo.com%2Fweb%2Fmokka%2F&parser=xml&laxtype=yes I think that makes my point for me. Not really. That's not the system I was talking about. The article at the URL I reference

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Henri Sivonen wrote: If my parser tells your ContentHandler that there is a namespace, then there is. Your ContentHandler doesn't get to see any source bytes. But you don't send me a parser and you don't talk to my ContentHandler. Your HTTP server sends me a stream of bytes that my parser the

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

Sander Tekelenburg wrote: At 08:17 -0500 UTC, on 2006-11-05, Elliotte Harold wrote: [...] The specific problem is that an author may publish a correctly labeled UTF-8 or ISO-8859-8 document or some such. However the server sends a Content-type header that requires the parser to treat the docum

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

On Nov 5, 2006, at 16:29, Elliotte Harold wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: Why not ditch the HTML 5 layer completely and simply allow the XML tools direct access? Because we have to remain compatible with the web, where there are an infinite number of existing documents that browsers must be ab

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

On Nov 5, 2006, at 14:12, Elliotte Harold wrote: If you don't have xmnls and xmlns:prefix then there are no namespaces, period. If my parser tells your ContentHandler that there is a namespace, then there is. Your ContentHandler doesn't get to see any source bytes. If my parser gives your

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 16:35, Elliotte Harold wrote: Anne van Kesteren wrote: Well, the problem is that they would mean different things. Consider the following fragment: Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. In point of the fact, there are a lot more than two different things the fragment y

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 16:39, Elliotte Harold wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote: Is there anything else that stops every HTML5 document from being a well-formed XML document? Case-insensitivity and empty elements for example. These would stop some documents from being well-formed, not all. I'm sure

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 14:30, Elliotte Harold wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote: Personally, I think MathML is so hopelessly verbose for hand authoring that this really shouldn't be about enabling hand authoring MathML-in-HTML5 but about enabling MathML-in-HTML5 (perhaps generated by a future versio

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

At 08:17 -0500 UTC, on 2006-11-05, Elliotte Harold wrote: [...] > The specific problem is that an author may publish a correctly labeled > UTF-8 or ISO-8859-8 document or some such. However the server sends a > Content-type header that requires the parser to treat the document as > ISO-8859-1 or

Re: [whatwg] Footnotes, endnotes, sidenotes

Le 5 nov. 2006 à 7:52, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Scholarly books sometimes use both footnotes and endnotes for different things -- footnotes for citations and endnotes for tangential discussions, or vice versa. I've never seen an HTML document try to make this d

Re: [whatwg] element comments

Le 5 nov. 2006 à 7:42, Elliotte Harold a écrit : There are always edge cases. The distinction between semantics and presentation is a fuzzy one. Nonetheless, I think most of the time height and width as specified on today's img tags are clearly presentational. I'm beginning to get lost in

Re: [whatwg] Footnotes, endnotes, sidenotes

Elliotte Harold wrote: Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Scholarly books sometimes use both footnotes and endnotes for different things -- footnotes for citations and endnotes for tangential discussions, or vice versa. I've never seen an HTML document try to make this distinction, though. Distin

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:48:59 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Browser vendors can handle XHTML now. It's a non-issue for them. Working for one I can assure you it's very much an issue. Looking at http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/ it seems like you do a pretty good job. :-)

[whatwg] Entity parsing

>From section 9.2.3.1. Tokenising entities: > For some entities, UAs require a semicolon, for others they don't. This applies to IE. FWIW, the entities not requiring a semicolon are the ones encoding Latin-1 characters, the other HTML 3.2 entities (&, > and <), as well as " and the uppercase va

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Anne van Kesteren wrote: Browser vendors can handle XHTML now. It's a non-issue for them. Working for one I can assure you it's very much an issue. Looking at http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/ it seems like you do a pretty good job. :-) certainly there's new stuff in HTML 5 that will requ

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:35:32 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, the problem is that they would mean different things. Consider the following fragment: Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. [...] Ok, fair enough. The tree representation you get is different. Does that

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:29:29 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: * Browser vendors that have to deal with real world content. Browser vendors can handle XHTML now. It's a non-issue for them. Working for one I can assure you it's very much an issue. -- Anne van Kesteren

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Henri Sivonen wrote: Is there anything else that stops every HTML5 document from being a well-formed XML document? Case-insensitivity and empty elements for example. These would stop some documents from being well-formed, not all. I'm sure you're allowed to use all lower case. can you use e

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Anne van Kesteren wrote: Well, the problem is that they would mean different things. Consider the following fragment: Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. In point of the fact, there are a lot more than two different things the fragment you propose might mean. Meaning is determined locally

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Lachlan Hunt wrote: Why not ditch the HTML 5 layer completely and simply allow the XML tools direct access? Because we have to remain compatible with the web, where there are an infinite number of existing documents that browsers must be able to handle interoperably. You're getting this ba

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: For a document to be a HTML 4 document it would need a HTML 4.01 document type declaration, and for a document to be a well-formed XML document, it would have to have no HTML 4.01 document type declaration. There are not many documents that both have and don't have a HTML

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 15:57, Elliotte Harold wrote: Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: * Lachlan Hunt wrote: Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well- formed XML. Yes it is. Good catch. I forgot that. I was mistaken. Is there a

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: * Lachlan Hunt wrote: Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well-formed XML. Yes it is. Oh, sorry. You're right. I thought it required a PUBLIC or SYSTEM identifier. I got confused because, unl

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 15:54, Elliotte Harold wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote: The model in the browsers that matter is the DOM. Unfortunately. But it is too late to change it. And having even that level of interop is great. But as I keep saying, *it's not just browsers*. There's a lot more happ

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:57:08 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there anything else that stops every HTML5 document from being a well-formed XML document? Well, the problem is that they would mean different things. Consider the following fragment: ...

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

* Elliotte Harold wrote: >Really? Never? There are many HTML 4 documents that are well-formed XML >documents? Are these not legal HTML 5 documents? I scanned the spec >quickly, but I didn't find anything that was flat out forbidden by XML. For a document to be a HTML 4 document it would need a

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Elliotte Harold wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: Why is the specific syntax so important? The specific syntax is important because there's a huge, useful toolchain for processing XML and there's essentially zilch for processing this strange HTML 5 thing. In the real world, you cannot expect to b

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: * Lachlan Hunt wrote: Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well-formed XML. Yes it is. Good catch. I forgot that. There are one or two XML parsers that blow this one, but they're not much used.

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Henri Sivonen wrote: The model in the browsers that matter is the DOM. Unfortunately. But it is too late to change it. And having even that level of interop is great. But as I keep saying, *it's not just browsers*. There's a lot more happening on the Web than classic desktop browsers. A docu

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

* Lachlan Hunt wrote: >Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document >requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well-formed XML. Yes it is. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoe

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Nov 5, 2006, at 15:12, Elliotte Harold wrote: Anne van Kesteren wrote: Sorry, but the model of the web is the DOM, whether you like it or not. *The* model of the Web is not DOM. The model in the browsers that matter is the DOM. Unfortunately. But it is too late to change it. And havi

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:27:14 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I still don't get it what's the advantage of having getElementsByClassName take a DOMTokenString argument over a plain DOMString. Oh right, sorry. Yeah, I suppose a DOMString makes more sense. -- Anne van Ke

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 16:18:32 +0600, Anne van Kesteren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> I think this hasn't been suggested before. Perhaps the method should >>> accept a DOMTokenString as argument instead of an array. This allows >>> things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. The only

Re: [whatwg] Spelling error: labelled --> labeled

Elliotte Harold wrote: Multiple times in the draft "labelled" should be change to "labeled" (unless maybe this is a British spelling?) labeled is the en-US spelling, labelled is the correct spelling in en-GB, en-AU and many other countries. wouldn't have noticed if the spell checker in Thun

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

Anne van Kesteren wrote: How does requiring changes solve the problem for content that's out there? This doesn't make much sense to me. The specific problem is that an author may publish a correctly labeled UTF-8 or ISO-8859-8 document or some such. However the server sends a Content-type

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Anne van Kesteren wrote: Sorry, but the model of the web is the DOM, whether you like it or not. *The* model of the Web is not DOM. *The* model of the Web does not exist. There are multiple instances of *a* model of the Web. Several of these call themselves DOM, though I'm sure this group kn

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Lachlan Hunt wrote: Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well-formed XML. OK. I thought it might be something like that. I just couldn't find it in skimming the spec. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java

[whatwg] Spelling error: labelled --> labeled

Multiple times in the draft "labelled" should be change to "labeled" (unless maybe this is a British spelling?) I always get this one wrong myself, and wouldn't have noticed if the spell checker in Thunderbird hadn't complained. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/labeled -- Elliotte Rust

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:50:04 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] Spurious Cp1252 is a real problem. In fact, incorrectly labeled encoding is a real problem, and a thorny one. Draconian error handling in XML solves this, but I'm not sure what HTML 5 should do here. It's w

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

Elliotte Harold wrote: Spurious Cp1252 is a real problem. I'm not sure what HTML 5 should do here. At the very least, ISO-8859-1 must be treated as Windows-1252. I'm not sure about the other ISO-8859 encodings. Numeric and hex character references from 128 to 159 must also be treated as Win

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:12:44 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't care what appears in the DOM. My model is not the DOM. Most models are not the DOM. Sorry, but the model of the web is the DOM, whether you like it or not. -- Anne van Kesteren

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Lachlan Hunt wrote: I'm not sure why that bothers you. As long as things are well-formed, what's the harm? text/html *does not* enforce well-formedness and *never will*. That's the problem! application/xhtml+xml doesn't enforce well-formedness either. That's the job of the parser. If a

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Lachlan Hunt wrote: Why is the specific syntax so important? If, in HTML (not XHTML), is defined to be interpreted as the math element in the MathML namespace, what difference does the syntax make in the end? All HTML elements are already defined to be in the XHTML namespace without any xm

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Elliotte Harold wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote: A conforming HTML5 byte stream is *never* a well-formed XML 1.0 byte stream. Really? Never? Yes, never! For one, a conforming HTML 5 (not XHTML 5) document requires the DOCTYPE to be and that is not well-formed XML. There are many HTML 4 doc

Re: [whatwg] Custom elements and attributes

Øistein E. Andersen wrote: I perfectly agree. (Actually, i think that U+7F (delete) and the C1 control characters should be excluded [transformed into U+FFFD] as well, but this could perhaps be problematic due to spurious CP1252 characters.) Spurious Cp1252 is a real problem. In fact, incorre

Re: [whatwg] Footnotes, endnotes, sidenotes

Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Scholarly books sometimes use both footnotes and endnotes for different things -- footnotes for citations and endnotes for tangential discussions, or vice versa. I've never seen an HTML document try to make this distinction, though. Distinguishing footnotes and e

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Elliotte Harold wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: No, not without namespaces, just without the xmlns and QNames syntax. e.g. when is encountered in text/html, it appears in the DOM as http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML";> That's like saying you want to have biology but without all that yucky evol

Re: [whatwg] element comments

Lachlan Hunt wrote: Using attributes to describe actual metadata about an image that has real practical benefits, for both the author and user, is not presentational in my view. Yes, but that is not what the height and width attributes are. They say nothing about the image and everything abo

[whatwg] Typo in 9.2.3

Otherwise if the next seven chacacters are a case-insensitive match for the word "DOCTYPE", then consume those characters and switch to the DOCTYPE state. chacacters --> characters -- Elliotte Rusty Harold [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeaulait.org/books

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Henri Sivonen wrote: A conforming HTML5 byte stream is *never* a well-formed XML 1.0 byte stream. Really? Never? There are many HTML 4 documents that are well-formed XML documents? Are these not legal HTML 5 documents? I scanned the spec quickly, but I didn't find anything that was flat out

Re: [whatwg] The utility function for semantics in HTML

Elliotte Harold wrote: I suspect there are actually two axes here, and they're not orthogonal, [...] I agree we don't want to go all the way to 1 on the first axis. [...] However, I would turn the second axis all the way to about 0.99 Just to note that, in your model of non-orthogonal a

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

Henri Sivonen wrote: Personally, I think MathML is so hopelessly verbose for hand authoring that this really shouldn't be about enabling hand authoring MathML-in-HTML5 but about enabling MathML-in-HTML5 (perhaps generated by a future version of itex2mml or similar) to be served through content

Re: [whatwg] The utility function for semantics in HTML

Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: To maximize the utility (usefulness) of documents using it. But this is a complicated function. * Less presentational -> more medium-independent -> accessible to more people -> greater utility. (Examples: people using screenreaders or search engines.) *

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html (Was: MathML-in-HTML5)

Lachlan Hunt wrote: No, not without namespaces, just without the xmlns and QNames syntax. e.g. when is encountered in text/html, it appears in the DOM as http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML";> That's like saying you want to have biology but without all that yucky evolution silliness. If y

Re: [whatwg] The problems with namespaces in text/html

William F Hammond wrote: This thread is specifically about documents on the web for _presentation_ by _browser-class_ user agents. There is no such thing, and the sooner we realize that the better. There are documents on the Web, which may be processed by many different classes and types of

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

Lachlan Hunt wrote: Anne van Kesteren wrote: This allows things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. anything that accepts a DOMString will automatically accept a DOMTokenString, including getElementsByClassName. So your example will already work. It seems getElementsByClass

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

Anne van Kesteren wrote: I think this hasn't been suggested before. Perhaps the method should accept a DOMTokenString as argument instead of an array. This allows things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. Since a DOMTokenString just extends DOMString, anything that accepts a

[whatwg] WindowHTML Option() constructor

The Option() constructor takes four arguments: 'Option(in DOMString name, in DOMString value, in boolean defaultSelected, in boolean selected)' is the complete version of it. -- Anne van Kesteren

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 10:55:05 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think this hasn't been suggested before. Perhaps the method should accept a DOMTokenString as argument instead of an array. This allows things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. The only problem

Re: [whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:33:00 +0600, Anne van Kesteren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think this hasn't been suggested before. Perhaps the method should > accept a DOMTokenString as argument instead of an array. This allows > things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. The only > pro

Re: [whatwg] Footnotes, endnotes, sidenotes

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 19:21:42 +0600, Matthew Paul Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Footnotes and endnotes are identical in content in the context of a >> print document and I am not certain how they'd differ even >> presentationally on a web page, so yes, I think those can be >> considered ide

[whatwg] getElementsByClassName() idea

I think this hasn't been suggested before. Perhaps the method should accept a DOMTokenString as argument instead of an array. This allows things like ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className) etc. The only problem is how to get a DOMTokenString without first getting .className from somewher