Eric,
And I believe that your focus is a fine one. However, going back to
the title of the email. I don't believe, because of the other applications
of SOA, that it is appropriate to say "SOA Infrastructure" unless we're
using it to cover all aspects of implementing a service including the pens,
pads, chairs, buildings, etc.
JP
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric
Newcomer
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 9:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: SOA Infrastructure
Ok, cigars notwithstanding, I think I get it about the
non-computerized contracts being an important part of
the design, and valuable in their own right. Not to be
overlooked etc.
I would still say, however, that the main point of any
SOA exercise would be to automate as many of the
contracts as possible, since computers typically (but
not always, as you are saying) tend to help businesses
run more efficiently.
Thanks,
Eric
--- JP Morgenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BINGO! Give the man a ci-gar! That's exactly what
> I'm saying. Remember
> the 'A' in SOA. I claim that SOA is about a way to
> design a system-any
> system-and it does not have to be realized in
> software. I believe it is a
> grave mistake for the industry to associated SOA
> with the fact that it has
> to be realized in software. And, indeed, this is
> exactly what I believe
> others believe when I see terms like "SOA
> Infrastructure" and "SOA Testing".
>
> SOA is a way to design a system that closely models
> the business, breaking
> down the business as a set of services with a
> well-defined contract. Some
> of these systems may be automated, while others are
> based on humans. A
> service is a black box that has a well-defined input
> and output and
> guarantees a certain level of delivery.
>
> JP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [email protected]
>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Eric
> Newcomer
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:40 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Re:
> SOA Infrastructure
>
> Todd,
>
> I am really baffled by this, I have to admit. Are
> you
> implying that an SOA doesn't have to be realized in
> software?
>
> I have been thinking of SOA as related to software,
> isn't it?
>
> I realize there are a lot of nontechnical issues,
> and
> I completely agree that an SOA needs to be defined
> independently of technology considerations, but at
> the
> end of the day isn't the point of the exercise to
> improve the usefulness and suitability of computers
> for business applications?
>
> Are you and JP arguing that it's enough to do the
> design? This is what I don't get.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
>
>
> --- Todd Biske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > +1. If I could give it +2, I would. Every time
> I
> > sit down and
> > think about what it takes to make SOA successful,
> I
> > don't think
> > technology ever comes up on my list.
> >
> > -tb
> >
> > On Mar 11, 2006, at 3:42 PM, JP Morgenthal wrote:
> >
> > > Eric,
> > >
> > > Technology is not required to implement
> anything.
> > I can take any of
> > > the bank services I represented in my example in
> > my post and
> > > implement them
> > > with humans. Will I still need infrastructure,
> > yes, probably a
> > > building in
> > > which to work, a phone, a pen, pencil, maybe
> I'll
> > even throw in a
> > > pad for
> > > good faith. The one thing I don't need is
> > technology (unless you
> > > want to
> > > consider the pencil technology, in which case I
> > won't argue).
> > >
> > > The problem with saying SOA Infrastructure is
> > that it immediately
> > > associates in non-technical people's minds that
> > this thing is
> > > beyond them,
> > > not in their field of vision, "that thing that
> IT
> > does that we all
> > > hate
> > > because they're too slow doing it in the first
> > place."
> > >
> > > I just worked with a company where we used SOA
> to
> > define the entire
> > > enterprise. The CFO and the sales team and the
> > marketing team and
> > > the loan
> > > team didn't see SOA as technology. They saw it
> as
> > the way they
> > > were being
> > > organized. They saw it as the way they define
> > what they do to other
> > > departments, they say it as requirement to
> develop
> > a contract that
> > > explains
> > > to other groups how to use their services.
> > >
> > > SOA can be so much more than we're giving it
> > credit for today. It's
> > > only recently that I've seen the power of using
> in
> > organizational
> > > management. However, there are many thought
> > leaders in this group
> > > and if
> > > you all continue to associated SOA with
> technology
> > in the minds of
> > > non-technologists, the whole value proposition
> of
> > SOA as a way to
> > > bridge IT
> > > and business disappears.
> > >
> > > Given your investment in the ESB market, I'm
> > sorry to say, these
> > > people could care less about an ESB, a registry
> or
> > an SOA governance
> > > facility.
> > >
> > > But, for the record, your reply even states an
> > "SOA Application",
> > > hence, I say that you're talking about SODA
> > infrastructure and not SOA
> > > infrastructure.
> > >
> > > JP
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> > [email protected]
> > >
> >
>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Eric
> > > Newcomer
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:13 AM
> > > To:
> > [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture]
> Re:
> > SOA Infrastructure
> > >
> > > Hi JP -
> > >
> > > I am not sure what you think SOA Infrastructure
> > means,
> > > but to me it means the technology needed to
> > implement
> > > an SOA based application - i.e. an application
> > > designed using an SOA.
> > >
> > > The coin in this case has two sides - yes, SOA
> > based
> > > design is independent of technology. However,
> > > technology is needed to implement the design.
> > >
> > > I fail to see a problem in calling that
> technology
> > > "SOA Infrastructure."
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > > --- JP Morgenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
