Eric Newcomer wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> With respect, the discussion was comparing Jini with Web services, not
> ESBs. I think it is important for you guys to really try to understand
> what was intended in Web services. One of the most telling things in
I think it's more important for the originators of Web Services to
explain to us guys what they intended and how they saw it working. And
perhaps provide some examples too.
> Sanjiva's email was the part where he said that if vendors don't improve
> their tools then Web services will fail. Do not confuse the tools with
> the specifications. Vendors are doing better but as a general statement
> they are still thinking too much about the Java and VB objects and how
> to "derive" Web services from them. This is really backward thinking,
> like trying to drive in reverse looking in a mirror.
>
I'm not sure I agree with that. If we've got all these legacy systems
lying around, surely I want tools to take what I have and get it into
web services as easily as possible. I don't really want to define some
new web services interface and try to map it down onto what I already have?
I think if you are designing with a clean sheet of paper, it's all well
and good.
> For the record, the IONA ESB does not require our software on both sides
> - we are happy consuming standard Web services requests from anyone and
> equally happy sending standard Web services requests. We participated,
> along with several other vendors, at the recent Microsoft WCF interop
> "plug fest" and we did not have to install anything on the remote
> Windows box in order to interoperate successfully with WCF, including
Hmmm, so what version of Windows was installed? If I were a betting man
I'd guess that the reason this worked is because Microsoft distribute
everything you need with their Operating System removing the install
step that one might otherwise have to do?
Could you also explain exactly what you did with all this stuff - did
you build a useful example system or just demonstrate some form of
interoperability? And if you demonstrated some form of
interoperability, how did you demonstrate it?
> extended specifications such as WS-Addressing, WS-ReliableMessaging, and
> WS-AtomicTransactions. We would have tested WS-Security also but
> basically ran out of time.
>
> A challenge was posted to the Jini folks on this list a long time ago by
> John Apps as to how Jini would handle a widely heterogenous IT
> environment, including IBM mainframes, Tandem systems, DEC minicomputers
> running VMS, COBOL, PL/I, C++, CORBA, Tuxedo, WebSphere MQ, etc. That
> has still gone unanswered. As has Sanjiva's latest mention of handling
> VB-CICS.
>
What you've got there is IMHO just a random mix of software and
hardware. How do you integrate a CORBA system with Web Services? I
know how to integrate a CORBA system with Jini, perhaps you'd like to
explain how to do it with web services and then we can usefully compare
the solutions.
What kind of answer are you expecting?
Perhaps a technology recommendation? Maybe an architecture? Perhaps a
product pitch?
Every system is different and assuming that any technology including web
services and/or XML fits all situations is a bad mistake to make. Do I
really want to integrate everything with everything? What's my overall
direction for my systems? What exactly am I going to do with them next?
How many changes am I going to make to them and where? What kind of
tasks are these systems performing and do I need asynchronous or
synchronous comms? What kind of security does each system have and how
do I knit that all together to get sane authentication/access models?
These are the sorts of questions I ask myself as I architect and I
wouldn't even try and answer the above challenge without a lot more
detail otherwise it's just an abstract argument with no measureable aspects.
Thoughts?
Dan.
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