Hi Keith,
Interesting views - two things maybe worth some thought:
(1) If, as you say, Eclipse is the next framework of choice, it surely
will follow the same path as all others where it becomes over-full with
complexity as the result of trying to satisfy too many different
requirements. You could argue that as it's all mix-and-match that won't
happen however, JEE API's don't all have to be bundled together in one
big mix either but that's what we ended up with.
(2) Eclipse has come from an all-in-one JVM mindset, OSGI also takes
this position and it's well known that single JVM work is a lot
different from remote communication between JVMs. Eclipse, like many
other frameworks, will have to confront those issues and, as it's being
produced by the same vendors as all the other frameworks, I'm willing to
bet it'll make most of the same mistakes as CORBA, WebServices etc.
At the end of the day, if Eclipse becomes the next standard, it will
likely sink under the weight of vendors scrapping for customers just as
all previous efforts have.
Best,
Dan.
Keith Harrison-Broninski wrote:
> This discussion is acquiring a slightly Alice in Wonderland quality.
>
> First, I thought we were discussing frameworks? They are all, without
> exception, tools that come with bugs and a learning curve. However, the
> best chance of "quick delivery [of] high-quality, robust, maintainable
> and operational software intended to reduce the total cost of ownership
> over the entire lifecycle" is to avoid re-inventing the wheel, isn't
> it. I doubt that anyone on this list has released an enterprise
> application of which they wrote every line from scratch for years now.
> To the contrary, most of us release software of which we only wrote a
> fraction, the rest being bundled third-party libraries.
>
> Second, Eclipse is *not* any longer, if it ever was, an IDE. It is a
> "platform" - for which read "framework".
>
> My original point was that all the frameworks people are recommending on
> this list (J2EE, Jini, Spring, SCA, whatever) will soon effectively be
> subsumed into a larger one: the Eclipse-based approach to development.
> Eclipse has an open plug-in architecture and many sub-projects which
> have attracted such heavyweight industry support that there is now
> really no compelling argument for adopting any other "glue" to hold your
> software development together. There are plug-ins to help you code in
> Spring et al and integrate with just about any application server, to
> give only a couple of examples. And if you don't know about them yet,
> check out such Eclipse sub-projects as the (now well-established) EMF
> and the (new but promising) Higgins. You can use Eclipse as an IDE and
> decide how much of the platform you want to package with your own code,
> but my bet is that as time goes on people will use more and more of it.
>
> If you're a Microsoftie, you have the choice to stick with their
> proprietary (and expensive) tools. Which are not exactly bug-free or
> quick to learn, are they. But for everyone else, to my mind the writing
> is on the wall for any other overall approach, whether you prefer Java,
> C#, Ruby, AJAX or any other programming technology. Who wouldn't want a
> set of tools that are not only free but supported by the largest
> companies in the industry - and to cap it all, are extremely
> well-written. If you don't know the Eclipse API yet, I recommend you
> check it out - pattern-based design at its best, in my view.
>
> As with any framework, you have to invest time into Eclipse to learn it
> properly - and this is always off-putting, which is perhaps the sub-text
> to some of these responses - but you can get up to speed in a week,
> which is fair enough for something that will save you many times that
> amount of effort, as well as helping you write better code.
>
> And keeping an active mind does slow the aging process, or so they say :-)
>
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