The initial question was: are RIA and SOA orthogonal or compatible considering that SOA is coarse-grained while RIA is fine-grained ? (I do not support neither of these granularity statements as absolute truth). My point was that previous versions of HTTP enforced a sort of fine-granular communication while Ajax can provide both models. Based on this, why wouldn't we review familiar Web/HTTP dialog making it more function-oriented, i.e. coarse-grained?
- Michael ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:29:40 AM Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: Meehan on RIA meets SOA I'm looking at my bookshelf and wondering what the difference between RIA and X/Xt/Motif is :) What I mean by this is that the principles in a good interface (my last year at Uni was on interfaces and the first 5 years of my career) haven't changed greatly in the last 20 years, the WILI v KISS problem still remains but architecturally the problem is similar. Instead of using X we are now using HTTP (why isn't X REST would be a question!) but the basic rules remain 1) Rendering is separate from communication - i.e. two threads at least and keep the interface drawn while you make requests 2) Cache - don't always round trip to the server if you can avoid it 3) HMVC - Hierarchical MVC works, but have different view models (but linked automatically) to information models. 4) anticipate - have the information available before the user asks whenever possible. 5) minimise the network traffic There are a whole bunch more but the RIA piece feels, at the moment, like coding in Windows 3.1 over Motif, the widget sets don't have the sophistication and the model isn't very clean. So on the Ajax front its good that it does async but a "better" solution will be when technologies like Google Gears is more commonly available as this will enable two sets of async, one to retrieve information into the cache and one to get information from the cache. Coding like its 1994.... :) Steve On 30/03/2008, Michael Poulin <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > +1 > > Nothing personal, but all developers prefer a more concrete instructions and > coding as possible to complete the work. This is the nature of the job. We > are talking about architectural, long-living solutions which can lead to new > architectural models and/or new usability models of old/known things. > > Anne has confirmed that RIA is friendly with fine-grained service interfaces. > > Now, I can move onto RIA itself. RIA is driven by requirements called User > Experience Requirements. Users demand what they saw already and found > convenient. This does not mean that they would not find convenient something > that they have not seen yet. My point here is that the best result in > RIA+SOA may be reached when User Experience gets influenced from BOTH > sides: since SOA prefers coarse-grained service interfaces, it makes sense > to try to redesign User Interface in the same manner. That is, the UI might > be transferred from the field updates philosophy into task execution and > result updates. > > Ajax (as a part of RIA) is the right tool for this because it can > asynchronously perform a tasks in a windows area realizing the User form > "instant" dialog (as I see today, developers picked up what is on the > surface of Ajax - asynchronous update per window widget or field. This is > what leads to a fine-grained service interface). > > - Michael > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Steve Jones <jones.steveg@ gmail.com> > To: service-orientated- architecture@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 10:55:56 PM > Subject: Re: [service-orientated -architecture] Re: Meehan on RIA meets SOA > > > > > Or to put it another way > > Java and .NET developers like clearly defined elements as they know that > this reduces support costs. PHP and Ruby developers are concentrating just > on the development part so don't consider the long term.... > > :) > > Fast should be about the lifetime, not about the first go live. > > Steve > > > > On 28/03/2008, Scott C. Sanchez <scottsanchez@ gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've noticed that when I talk to developers, Java and .NET developers > > prefer to consume SOAP (wsdl-based) services that they can easily import > > into their IDE, where as PHP and Ruby developers prefer to consume > > REST-based services since they are simple and fast, much like their choice > > of language. > > > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Anne Thomas Manes <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Michael Poulin <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > One of lead architects around me said that SOA and RIA are almost > > > orthogonal > > > > because RIA demands fine-grained operations while SOA tends to > > > > coarse-grained ones... > > > > > > > > - Michael > > > > > > Hence my assertion that RIA and mashups will become more intimately > > > connected with SOA if/when > > > REST becomes a predominant approach for building services. > > > > > > REST exposes capabilities through a resource interface. (see my recent > > > post, REST is about Resources > > > [http://apsblog. burtongroup. com/2008/ 03/rest-is- about-r.html] ). The > > > resource interface is fine-grained. Any "thing" that you want to > > > interact with has a URL. RESTful services are significantly easier to > > > interact with than SOAP APIs, particularly from the RIA and mashup > > > tooling perspective. > > > > > > (Note that the RESTful service can still be coarse-grained -- but the > > > interface [the resources it exposes] is fine-grained. ) > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Rob Eamon <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> > > > > To: service-orientated- architecture@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:37:30 PM > > > > Subject: [service-orientated -architecture] Re: Meehan on RIA meets > > > SOA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is that? Why would an RIA be "more connected" to services based > > > on > > > > the interaction style? Why would accessing services via REST vs. any > > > > other mechanism be considered more connected? A service consumer is a > > > > service consumer, regardless of the service interface, no? > > > > > > > > Or are you referring to the relative prevalence of an RIA's use of > > > > services compared to other approaches? > > > > > > > > -Rob > > > > > > > > --- In service-orientated- architecture@ yahoogroups. com, "Anne > > > Thomas > > > > Manes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > RIA and mashups will become more intimately connected with SOA > > > > > if/when REST becomes a predominant approach for building services. > > > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 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