On 30 July 2010 10:08, Alexander Johannesen <[email protected]>wrote:
> > > Hola! > > > Steve Jones <[email protected] <jones.steveg%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > Where? Seriously give me a few examples where people are integrating > > 300 systems in a heavily regulated industry using REST. > > Lots of places, just pop by the main app spaces, AWS or Google > services, but I suspect, as always, you won't be happy with that > because you have some very specific scenarios in mind, some specific > environments, and usually environments that are already all over the > SOAP bandwagon and probably *won't* adapt to anything else due to the > massive legacy involved. > No I just want something beyond Google/Amazon/Yahoo. Just one or two traditional companies leveraging REST. > > I feel you're asking about that new fangled invention, the "car" or > whatever they call it, by looking in the barn for them. :) > Nope, I'm being told that the flying car is really popular... but its just all those regular cars on the road that I can see. > > > > > Maybe the problem is one of context; maybe Steve and the Enterprise > > > world (although I suspect a very specific version of it) are missing > > > out on something? Maybe it's standing a bit still because there's only > > > so far you can go within it? > > > > Yup that'll be it. Its because we don't "get" REST. > > Or don't "get" REST because the legacy is too massive? If the horses > still ride pretty well, if your horse and cart still perform decent, > you're not getting why those cars are even needed. > Yup that'll be it. That will be the same reason that Java and WS-* exploded in the enterprise in their first 5 years and why technologies like EAI, ERP and the like became popular. The reality is that the real challenge in computing is the one the enterprise faces, namely the people side of the problem is the real issue not the technology side. REST hasn't proven an ability to help there while WS-* (for all its many faults) has. > > Now, I understand that *you* are far, far smarter than that. But maybe > your environment, your compadres and context isn't. Or is too bogged > down in something that works to even see the advantage? I know that > until I really dug deep in REST I didn't see much advantage from SOAP > stuff, but after doing a few runs of massively distributed systems > something clicked. And perhaps there is a massive amounts of clicks > that needs to happen, lots of little epiphanies that is required for a > better adaption. > But here in lies the problem. Most solutions don't require massively distributed solutions to work well, in fact massively distributed and "working well" in support are pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum in most enterprises. I've done massively distributed systems, and the quality of people you need in support is a legion ahead of where most organisations have support. This is the problem on technically focused "better mousetraps" they are missing the point that that technology isn't actually the problem its people, and in particular support, that are the real challenge. > > I also suspect this is a question not of technology, but of > investment. If companies have swallowed the ESB bait (in any shape or > form) that larger vendors have been pushing, they're not going to > scrap it for something they don't fully understand can work any > better. If their pipeline goes down, who will they blame? The ESB is > *perfect* for the blame game, and satisfies a many managers at the > same time! :) > Certainly there is a blame point, but the issue with REST isn't that it doesn't have a blame point its that it doesn't help CREATE the blame points. The good thing about WS-* is that you create a contract and every bugger has to use it, people who don't are wrong. With dynamic interfaces you don't have that rigour and in an average enterprise this is death and complexity. > > > > Or could the > > fact, and it is a fact, that the vast vast majority of integrations > > out there are being done via WS-* indicate that REST hasn't in anyway > > shape or form become as popular in the last 5 years as Web Services > > did in its first 5 years. > > I remember CORBA being the thing once, too. It petered out. I'm sure > WS-* will, too. And it will probably be for very simple reasons, too, > like the cost of maintaining several but similar layers of technology. > ESB vendors will slowly move to REST, and customers will slowly > follow, even if it takes another 10 years or so. > Which means by my reckoning that REST will have put enterprise IT back by 15 years because it doesn't address the real problems that exist in enterprise IT, instead it seeks to solve a problem that isn't there. The real problem of enterprise IT is how to get disparate teams working together and defining the clear boundaries between them that ensure they can work independently and test independently and control their area. > > Me personally think this is great, because it gives me and my > customers a business advantage. :) But again, I deal with mostly > smaller companies that aren't mired in the multi-billion enterpricy > markets. Yet. > Nope, it just means you don't have the scale of problems that highlight the people issues as you get bigger (and good luck to you) the people v technology scale tips exponentially towards people. > > > > This to me would indicate that the > > challenge is more a case of the solution not fitting the real actual > > problems. > > Hmm, I can think of a handful of technologies that are technically > better than what ultimately became the success story. Success has > often *very* little to do with technical merits or the problem at > hand. Often it is pure luck and someone just friggin' did it first > that way, and it stuck. > I can think of loads of better people solutions that failed due to technical bigotry (Eiffel and Ada v C for instance). IT continues to miss the point (IMO) on where the real challenges are. This is why companies like SAP make a fortune and people who code custom solutions don't get why. Steve > Alex > > -- > Project Wrangler, SOA, Information Alchemist, UX, RESTafarian, Topic Maps > --- http://shelter.nu/blog/ ---------------------------------------------- > ------------------ http://www.google.com/profiles/alexander.johannesen --- > > >
