> Adam, > > I'm sure you're feeling frustrated but please be civil.
Please, show me where I used abusive language, ad-hominem attacks, or other instances of "uncivil" behavior. > > So, enterprise authentication using CAS isn't important to a CMS? > > > This is not what Martin said and I doubt it was even implied. Actually, it was implied. The product that was said to "suck" was PloneCAS, which is the product that provides CAS Authentication for Plone. > You do realize that your first citation is over 3 years old? And the > second citation appears to be mostly just a howto on setting up some There seems to be a state of denial about this issue. Let me be clear: I'm not the only person who experiences this, and/or who has said this. I've used Plone for more than a few years, and was one of the first people on our campus to use it. We have a local Zope/Plone group that meets regularly, and if you look at our Plone sites, they are some of the largest for our campus. And all of us have experienced, to one degree or another, the issues I'm talking about. I appear to have one of the larger deployments (since we converted our entire College website with 24,000 pages according to the automated testing tools), so naturally I seem to have run into the issues rather more heavily. As I asked before, is there some, more recent document, which highlights how to structure Plone for a large scale deployment? If there is, I'd sure like to read it ... > monitoring tools if you've got a problem Zope instance -- it does not > appear to make any claim that suggests that Zope's "performance is > known to be poor". >From the reference -- 'Most people who have been working with Zope and Plone >for some time have learned on one day or another, what it means for Zope to >"spin". It incessantly uses 100% cpu ...' Most of us don't consider that performance to be good. > I've never experienced a deployment that needed anything like ZEO Raid > or RelStorage. As has been pointed out before, it seems unlikely that > your performance issues would be due to ZEO server bottlenecks. Is > there a specific reason that you feel this is your problem? Our main site keels over frequently when it was on our Zope/Zeo cluster. On its own box, it only restarts itself 1-5 times per day. > Note that I'm not claiming that Zope may not still have some kinks in > the scalability department but it certainly seems to scale reasonably > well enough to me and I've worked on some fairly demanding deployments. What setup did you use? > Nobody said anything about different "boxes" -- just different > "instances". In any case, you're talking about a different kind of > "scalability". Being able to scale up to multiple Plone instances in > a single Zope is not really a performance issue as much as a > management issue. Let's not confuse the issues. Perhaps in your > case, the management issue is minimal. Only you can determine that. What do you mean by "instance"? Install Zope (n front ends plus ZEO backend). Add Plone site. Repeat x 20. That's the setup I'm talking about. As far as I can tell, it's the most natural way to add different websites (e.g. Plone sites with different URLs). It also turns out not to be very performant. (Note: there's only one ZEO box, with one data.fs, which for us is <2GB) Install IIS/Apache. Add sites x 20, with host header redirection. No problems. Add dynamic elements (.NET, modPHP). Still no problems. If needed, load-balance. Note: that it's very easy to load balance the back-end database among two or more boxes. That's the scalability issue compared with other platforms. > > We just had an RFP for content management systems for our entire > > campus. Plone was suggested, but not picked. I honestly would have > > tried to change that decision before, but I see that it was a wise > > one after all. > > > What is your point? Clearly if your group has spent a couple hundred My point is that the Plone documentation and community, so far in my experience, haven't had many specific suggestions for troubleshooting large deployments and addressing scalability. (Again, thanks to Raphael Ritz for the ZEO Raid suggestion, which I'm trying out on a separate box, though the Subversion tags make my SysAdmins hesitant of its use on our production servers.) And, there doesn't seem to be the experience with large deployments. Even if we were to add consulting services to our sites, we're not certain we'd get a viable deployment that could handle hundreds of campus department web sites and hundreds of thousands of pages. [Note I am very carefully stating my experiences up to this point; I'd be happy to be proven wrong.] If you, or Martin, or someone else, based on a stack trace we were getting every 200 milliseconds could say -- "Oh, that looks like this, you could probably do that" -- I'd have a case to consider if hiring to address that problem would be a worthwhile investment. > hours on this problem with no resolution, you need help. This is not > a meant as a slight. A couple hundred hours is already costing you... > either money or time or both. Sometimes even the experts need help to > figure something out. Sometimes, debugging software is hard. This is I agree; I'm a Python programmer. However, I'm currently spending my time learning the ins and outs of the SAGE and math libraries. I have Martin's and the Zope 3 book currently on my desk, but that's a long term fix (e.g. reading the Zope/Plone APIs isn't something I have time for right now, hence our current bandaid). > not a hurdle exclusive to Plone. If irc or other community resources > can't help you, you either need to pick up the skills or hire someone > to do it. There is no magic shortcut. Agreed. I'm working on the former, but I haven't yet seen the latter. > Ric *************** * Adam Getchell, M.S. * Director of Information Technology * College of Agricultural & Environmental Sciences, UC Davis * [EMAIL PROTECTED] (530)752-8008 *************** "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." -- Sun Tzu _______________________________________________ Setup mailing list [email protected] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/setup
