Alan, >From experience, it's very difficult for old guys to time a late release and control any wrist roll consistently. That's one of the reasons I went to the long driver. I can take it back straight with heels on the ground, back of left hand vertical to the swing plane, cock the wrists straight up on plane, while maintaining the flat wrist, go as far as the stiff body will let me go, start the downswing with weight shift to left side, some hip rotation, and just let the club follow, wrists releasing when they want to go, then adding a bit of right hand to get the head square. I can probably get an 80-85° turn...maybe even 90° on good days, when my back isn't hurting...and the extra club length makes up for the loss of body torque. It's a very consistent and repeatable swing.
A senior friend I often play with also uses a longer driver (was a 1 handicap when younger and has a son just as good who's a pleasure to watch), but rolls his wrists open going back, so he lays off the club off a bit at the top, then has to flip the wrists over as he releases to get square. On good days he plays well, on most days he is all over the place because he can't time the flip consistently with the higher swingweight, on poor days he just flat tops half his shots...so he can score anywhere from 75 to 105. Any rolling of the hands before and during the downswing just doesn't pay for any senior player and most average players. A smooth, on-plane swing with a free release and as much speed generated from body torque and the right hand as possible seems to be the most consistent way for a senior to swing a driver whatever its length. With a shorter driver (or irons) and normal swingweight, the release is later and a little faster, but can't seem to make up the distance lost to the torque a more flexible body can generate. For me, it works out to about 10 yards an extra inch of club. When I was 30, I could hit a steel-shafted, laminated maple 43" driver 240-250 yards with an upper body rotation probably 100°...was a skinny, flexible, 130 pounds at 5' 10" height. At age 68, 5' 9" height and 180 paunchy prednisone pounds, it's a different ballgame without that generated body torque speed. Watching Tiger swing a club seems the ultimate in torque speed generation. I can't imagine how he can avoid back problems before he's 50, but maybe the physical training these pros do today will avoid them. The only training we did in the 1950s and 1960s, other than walking 36 holes a day carrying our bag of heavy sticks, was lifting a beer stein a number of times, depending on the heat of the day. :-) Bernie Writeto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:14 PM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Harrison Spineless Technology > It's sad when you respond to your own post, but it occurred to me that if > you can do the 90-degree shoulder thing so that there is minimal twist in > your wrists at the top of your backswing, by delaying your release (leaving > the club cocked well into the down swing) your wrists are forced to lag > behind your shoulders that are rotating back to square during the downswing > until centrifugal force straightens the club out and you can roll your > wrists (and the club) back to square just before impact, which you can only > do with your arms/club fairly straight (the rotational moment of inertia > thing). If you do the combo swing you are probably doing the same thing > except you start your backswing with your wrists slightly twisted. Where > in your downswing you roll the club face square depends on where you > 'release' the club. A late release means a late roll. > > I think. > > Regards again > > > > At 07:49 PM 3/4/03 -0800, you wrote: > >Let's see. We agree that the club face is parallel to the swing plane at > >the start of the downswing and perpendicular to the swing plane at the > >start of the back swing and at impact. There strike me as two extremes in > >the ways you can do this. First is to not rotate your shoulders and > >simply raise your arms and rotate the club 90-degrees with your > >hands/wrists/forearms. The second is to rotate your shoulders 90-degrees > >during the backswing, but not rotate your hands relative to your upper > >arms (that's not exactly right because our upper body is not vertical, but > >you get the picture). > > > >I'm too old to rotate my shoulders 90-degrees without serious head and hip > >rotation so I do a little of both. I was on the driving range the other > >day watching a girl of about 14 rotate her shoulders a full 90-degrees > >without any head movement and very little hip movement. Mi Hun Kim > >rotates 120-degrees (but she does rotate her head a little). > > > >It's just not fair. I'm getting old. I should be becoming more flexible > >to compensate for my declining strength. This probably has something to > >do with spines too. > > > >Regards all, > > > >Alan Brooks > > > > > > > >At 04:58 PM 3/4/03 -0500, you wrote: > >>At 03:48 PM 3/4/03 -0500, Bernie Baymiller wrote: > >>> > The pictures where the wrists are cocked show the back of the left > >>> hand to > >>> > the camera. Between 009 and 010, the hands turn so the edge of the left > >>> > hand is to the camera. That's a 90* roll in the last fraction of the > >>> > downswing before impact. Which is EXACTLY what I was talking about. > >>> > > >>> > BTW, the only way there could be no roll is if the shaft is twisted > >>> 90* at > >>> > impact. Sorry, no way. Remember that the clubface is in the swing > >>> plane at > >>> > the top (and, in good swings, most of the way down) but is perpendicular > >>>to > >>> > the swing plane at impact. > >>> > >>>But his shoulders are also turned 90°, so the only difference in his address > >>>position and his at-the-top position is the wrist cock...which is straight > >>>up with no rolling of the wrist. In the take-away shot with club about 7 > >>>o'clock, his hand position is almost identical with the downsing released > >>>club position at 7 o'cloock, so the club is returning on almost a straight > >>>plane...but his shoulders have rotated ahead, his hips have rotated ahead, > >>>yet the club returns to impact precisely as it left. You are looking at a > >>>tilted plane and the club is releasing straight down on plane...sorry, I > >>>just don't see the 90° change. > >> > >>Gotta disagree, Bernie. (Al, thanks for the support.) > >> > >>It would be POSSIBLE to keep the hands in the same plane through impact, > >>but uncomfortable. It would mean: > >> * Keeping the back of the left hand perpendicular to the swing plane > >> (where it has been through the first three pictures). > >> * Keeping the clubface IN THE SWING PLANE (where it has been through > >> the first three pictures). > >> > >>That last one is the telling point. We KNOW that the clubface goes from > >>being in the swing plane at the start of the downswing to being > >>perpendicular to the swing plane at impact. Are you saying that the shaft > >>is torqued 90* at impact? If not, then the hands have rotated to get it there. > >> > >>BTW, for purposes of the spine discussion, it really doesn't matter what > >>the hands do. All that matters is that the clubface and most of the shaft > >>(all but a few degrees that may remain torqued) rotates 90* late in the > >>downswing. Unless we disagree about that, it doesn't matter whether we > >>agree that the hands turn. > >> > >>Cheers! > >>DaveT > >> > > > > > >
