Evening Simon,
>> At 02:15 PM 8/17/2007, you wrote:
I got a strange message, and I wondered if you sent it.
( or caused it to happen ) I think you could do it. <grin>
Yep - I started to actually send a message impersonating you to *this*
list to demonstrate my point, but decided to just send a message that I
knew would generate a bounce to *you* (since it appeared to be 'from' you,
but sent to a list that you weren't subscribed to) - this bounce being the
result of the well designed smtp protocol in action... ;)
Great ! You must know that you have created an impression on me
............
I read it a time or two, ......... and thought of you.
I had to think a minute or two about what had happened.
Hope you aren't offended/angry - no harm intended...
Of course not, .......... instead I was delighted that you wanted to
show me, vividly what can happen.
What would you call it ?
As I said - a TLD (top level domain)...
mail.fugitt.com .........
mail.fugitt.com != (does not equal) fugitt.com
I know that but the line above in the original message indicated same.
mail.fugitt.com - in your case - is an MX record - or it could be a
subdomain...
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/subdomain.html.
OK ............
Again - you don't send *to* any particular server - you *relay*/send
*through* - *via* - some smtp server.
I understand. But it has to get to the mail server before it can go the
rest of the journey.
the only way any ISP can prevent you from using other smtp servers is to
block *both* port 25 *and* port 587. I have never heard of one that
blocked port 587, but that doesn't mean there isn't one or more
numbskull's out there that do...
True, I have never been super concerned about port numbers other than
the ones I had to learn to set up specific software like FTP. Telnet, and
sometimes Proxy servers.
I have read about a few others.
Maybe it is your wording...
Maybe so, but it is true, nevertheless.
I doubt it - ask them if they block port 587 (aka the 'submission' port)...
Heck, If I knew all the questions, that would be one thing.
Again - the only way is if they blocked *both* ports - and even then, you
could set up an smtp server running on any one of thousands of ports that
they *don't* block (*no* ISP blocks all ports) and access it that way.
OK...........
Yes, I understand that. I have used on POP server and a different
SMTP server for the same personality.
Yes, but my point is that most smtp servers will only relay mail that are
sent from a 'personality' that belongs to their domain.
I understand that.
Meaning, you cannot set up a 'personality' with a return email address of
m...@here.com, and send an email using gmails server, even if the smtp
server 'personality' you have set up has the correct username and password.
Yes, I have observed that also.
In the computer world, *everything* is 'virtual'. But the rest are
irrelevant. Certain ports have well defined functions. Port 25 is the smtp
port. Port 587 is the *alternate* smtp 'submission' port. Port 110 is the
POP3 port. 143 is the IMAP
I follow that logic of course.
See a full list here (makes for very boring reading):
http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers
I smiled as I read this. True it is. Many people will not do it to
learn what they need to know. I will. If I feel a need for it.
Knowledgeable hackers can combine them in a fashion to access remote
computers, unless they are specifically blocked.
They don't 'combine' them - they 'exploit' them - but only if they are 'open'.
Again, if we used the same terms,....... or if I knew all your terms, I
would understand things much better.
This is why all modern Cable/DSL modems come with a firewall that blocks
*all* inbound ports.
Not sure when the term, "Firewall" originated.
I work with Fire safety and knew what a real firewall actually is, long
before I saw it show up in computer technology.
I almost went to MIT to be a certified Fire Inspector but by the time I was
about ready, they no longer had the short courses.
So, I just settled for two Electrical Inspector Certifications.
Windows can be secured very easily, if you know what you are doing - but I
agree that, out of the box, it is very insecure, and a huge part of the
problem...
True, but I don't believe security was the problem with the
battleship. <grin>
Not precisely - but your words were imprecise, requiring me to try to
figure out exactly what you meant by "... some bogus ISP's will allow you
to SEND out only on their mail server." This can easily be read to mean
that 'some bogus ISPs block port 25'...
You have done very well figuring our my bogus terms and descriptions.
Not quite... a protocol is a *written standard*. Software can be written
to *implement* protocols, but the protocol itself is not 'software'.
Heck, possibly we even define software differently.
No problem there of course.
If it is not Hard, it is Soft to me. Worked on a problem off and on for a
week. When I rewired the factory cable, I solved the problem.
I did that on Friday and started on the problem on Monday.
I was trying to fix software until I got my meter and fixed the cable.
Still, some ISP's are intentionally set up to BLOCK, ( not pass the
packets ) to another SMTP server.
Right - some ISPs block port 25 (which is a *good* thing, but you said it
was bogus).
Don't you know by now, ...... anything that don't work the way I want
it to, is Bogus. It may be technically correct, .........
As you said, they have good reasons, but I wonder how the others
handle the protection.
They don't - thats why I said they are part of the [spam] *problem*.
So, you are saying it could be complete solved ?
Or nearly so.
>> Not sure of your point - whether or not you use a dynamic IP on a home
network has nothing to do with one's level of knowledge of computer security...
I don't do anything fancy at home now. At one time, I had FTP servers and
web servers set up.
I am a certified installer for Hughes Net satellite systems, but that does
not amount to much. Mostly fun shooting at the satellites.
Not much room for error in that.
Several years back, I set up a server in the back room at an industrial
site. I got free high speed access for some time, and
never had any problems. Likely there are 100's more hackers now.
Curious - when you say 'free high speed access', I'm assuming that you
mean you were stealing someone else's unsecured Wi-Fi? ;)
No...... not stealing anything. I had permission from them.
I had been very good to them over the years and they had more bandwidth
than they needed at the time.
This is indeed a big problem - although most new routers are coming with
auto-setup programs that steps people through setting them up fairly
securely (as long as they choose a non-dictionary password).
Interesting indeed.
By the way - if that is what you were doing, be aware it is illegal now...
It may have been illegal then. But I never felt guilty.
so what is an SMTP server if not a mail server? To most of us, an
SMTP is as close as we will ever come to a "Mail server".
'Mail' server is a generic term. There are SMTP servers, POP servers, IMAP
servers - all are 'mail' servers'.
I can understand that. It says something but nothing definite,
like Electronics, Software, Programmers, and other things,
Maybe even Doctors. Very general indeed.
An smtp server is used to relay email. There are different ways they can
be used - as simple relays, as outbound only, inbound only, or highly
specialized transports.
True, but you have to send it to one someplace. I have one connection
I hijacked that still works and does it.
An IMAP (or POP3) server is used to provide access to mail that has been
delivered to its ultimate destination.
Ok....... Thanks for all the definitions.
You are advanced in this area, and I am just a country boy that has never
been to school.
I hope you aren't taking offense - none is intended.
Of course not. Thanks a million for your efforts and time.
.. I just like clarity - and you pushed one of my buttons (suggesting that
any ISP that blocked port 25 was 'bogus', when in fact the opposite is
true)... ;)
Well, I have been good at that over the years. I learned it by accident.
On a world wide C programming list, I was wrong about something.
I got 100 replies and explanations.
If I had been right, no one said anything. Not that I practice being wrong.
<sigh> Where to begin...
You have done enough. I feel guilty about using so much of your time
and keystrokes.
Please forget the rest of my errors. <grin>
A Protocol is like a language. It is a well-defined method for one machine
to talk to another intelligently and reliably with respect to the purpose
it was written for.
True, I virtually learned that when I tackled communications with
RS-485 devices. I purchased two boards for $ 175.00 each.
It took me a week to write the code to communicate with them.
I was proud of the fact. They still sit on the bench.
I would give them to some disserving soul.
I would not call it a protocol, but they did in fact communicate and talk back.
>> You claimed you could 'send it out to any mail server you
>> wanted' - I challenged you to prove it.
That is true. I only wanted to send it to one or two.
How could I want to send anything to servers I did not know about.
Only the ones I wanted to use that I had set up properly.
I still use that one daily.
Of course, nothing stops you from *trying*, if that is what you meant, but
arguing such a point would be - pointless - so I didn't read it that way...
I have not considered us arguing about anything.
You wanted to make things clear, and I wanted to understand them.
Everything I said I could do, I can and have done it for years.
I may have said it in a manner that made you think I did not know what I
was doing or all mixed up. Mixed up in the terms mostly.
You have made that much clearer now.
So, you are saying when I send mail to mail.fugitt.com I would be
using the mail server at the ISP I use ?
How in the world could you read what I wrote to mean that??
Heaven only knows. I thought that was what you said and it did not seem
logical.
But to answer your question - it depends, but yes, it is *possible*. Your
ISP could be *hosting* 'mail.fugitt.com' *for* you,
No, none of the ones I use host any of my domains.
When I send mail to mail.fugitt.com
Again - you are NOT sending mail to 'mail.fugitt.com' - you are sending
mail to - for example - 'silver-list@eskimo.com'.
I know where I am sending mail. It has to get there first,
To me, Relaying means, .......... Resending. Maybe not in the 100%
academic sense. But it has to get there first.
Some ISP's will not let it get there as you have said and why.
the message, and if you pass that test, that smtp server accepts the
message and attempts to deliver it to the ultimate destination,
OK. I understand that. Sounds like you are saying the same thing I
said. Relaying is resending. It gets to the destination.
No apologies necessary - the main point I wanted to get across is that
'ISPs blocking port 25 is a *good* thing'... :)
You have a lot of patience. Hopefully you did not use it all up.
Again, .......... thanks for your efforts and your times.
Wayne
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