> I think the question I have when boiled down is: > > if a single-atom "ion" is a "colloid", then what distinguishes it from a > "dissolved" atom "in solution"?
Ahh the nub! A single-atom ion is in solution. But it is difficult to achieve this. Water OZ claim this feature, using laser ablation I believe, the trick being to cool and arrest the agrigation of the single atomic ions. A colloid by definition has particles 1 nm or larger in size, which therefore must contain multi-atom particles. Ivan, would you please run distinction between the two by me again. What is the difference between a dissolved substance and a colloid if a single ionized atom of a substance in the solute is a colloid? JOH -----Original Message----- From: James Osbourne, Holmes [SMTP:a...@trail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 10:43 AM To: 'silver-list@eskimo.com' Subject: RE: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions. Hi IVAN, If my spelling checker can't see it, I'm back to my on resources; not that good in spelling and typos. I am pressed for time. I will checkout your response asap. Thanks, James Osbourne, Holmes a...@trail.com -----Original Message----- From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:i...@win.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:33 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com> Hey James, You are the second person to call me Ian this week. What happened did someone change my name ( the source of my power < wilt >) when I wasn't looking? > Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your > statement:, "The manner of > creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight > forward, if not fully understood." , certainly applies to me. > > My comments to excerpts from your last post: > > Ian: > "The manner of > creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight > forward, if not fully understood. > One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which > would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a > positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there > are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at > the cathode as hydrogen gas." > > JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver > atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is > that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen > bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water, > balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of free > protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra > electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of > them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster? Yes pH is the negative log of free H+ ions. At pH 7 there are an equal number of H+ ions and OH- ions. When a potential is applied in the water, the H+ ions head straight for the Negative electrode where they are supplied with an electron, combine and head for the surface as Hydrogen gas. There are no free oxygen ions in water. Water molecules are not disassociated easily. There are no free electrons in the water (electrons can't swim, as one text put it). So there is not much that can happen to the silver other than to lose electrons at the anode and regain them at the cathode, and exist as silver ions in between. > Ian: > "Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver > ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and > metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. > Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic > ions are able to accept more electrons per particle." > > > JOH: What is the difference between a "complex silver ion" and a metallic > silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between multiatomic > ions---and a colloid? If multiatomic ions are able to accept more > electrons than a bit of metal, doesn't that make them more reactive? Is > there a difference between a multiatomic silver ion and a charged metallic > silver particle? Are we making some of both? A complex ion, or multiatomic ion, is an agrigate of monatomic ions. The charge on this particle is the same as the charge on one atom times the number of atoms it is composed of. A metallic silver colloid particle has no charge. A colloid may be composed of multiatomic ions, or metallic particles, or a combination of both. The term colloid describes the state that exists between between particles and solvant. This mostly means the suspended particles must be of a particular size, where they will not easily settle out or cannot be thought to be dissolved. When I mention multiatomic ions I mean a particle composed of monatomic ions. A charged metallic particle suggests a particle that has lost one or more electrons but has more first valency electrons that it could loose. In other words a particle which consists of ions and atoms. If we allow the sludge or treeing accumulated on the cathode to enter the solution, we are making both. > Most everyone agrees that a silver salt, most certainly highly ionized, is > more reactive that a silver colloidal particle. Is that so? The silver is not more reactive but the compound is. Different silver salts have different reactions. Silver can do no more than oxidise or bond to other compounds or elements, or perhaps allow reactions as a catalyst. > I think the question I have when boiled down is: > > if a single-atom "ion" is a "colloid", then what distinguishes it from a > "dissolved" atom "in solution"? Ahh the nub! A single-atom ion is in solution. But it is difficult to achieve this. Water OZ claim this feature, using laser ablation I believe, the trick being to cool and arrest the agrigation of the single atomic ions. A colloid by definition has particles 1 nm or larger in size, which therefore must contain multi-atom particles. > > Thanks for your continuing instruction. Please be patient with my > questions, they arise more from intuition than technical knowledge. > > And yes, I remain confused. I am happy to be of help James, and I rely on my intuition to guide me to the answers I seek, seems to work for me. Be it noted that I am not infalible...and answers are correct to the best of my knowledge. > James Osbourne, Holmes Ivan. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour <mdev...@id.net>
