Daniel and Karen Croom wrote:
> (The following is off-topic-nothing about silver- just a response)
I'll apologise for the same thing since a response to this is, by
necessity, going to be long to communicate anything so it might be
understood and not taken for raw bigotry. It is anything but :).
Please read this through before you go off on me :-).
> Dear Chuck and Vikii and Jhon,
> I did not express myself well and will attempt so now. That's the
> trouble with not being able to look someone in the eye while
> communicating.
A definite problem in this media :-).
> I've never felt bad or guilty for being white, nor do
> I think that anyone of any color should.
On this we agree.
> I didn't elaborate, but the
> prejudice towards the white race I experienced lasted maybe 30 minutes
> and occured after I had been visiting with some Cherokee.
I've spent some time with several native american groups. The following
statementd is represenative of my opinions of any group. There is the
problem with "generalizations" in that they are *generally* true. Sad
to
say. It is not those outstanding members of any ethnic group that cause
the fear and resentent of that group in general.
> I also had
> just watched a report about how store clerks respond to black
> customers as opposed to white and how differently black people
> applying for jobs are rated.
This is an unfortunate reality and it is, to me, a horror that this kind
of thing exists. The problem is that it exists *for a reason*. I do
not base my opinions here on governmental and crime statistics (although
they will back me up), but on my own personal experiences.
I spent many years in Atlanta (most recently Decatur ("deep south")). I
*personally* have been dragged out of my car at a stop light by a
(drunk) black man, having an (unloaded at that time) 9mm pistol at that
point was all that kept things from getting potentially *really* ugly,
fortunately I
didn't have to use it. just having it was enough. My car was broken
into twice (witnesses said it was black youth, both times, but the were
never apprehended) and the dash ripped out to get my stereo (once in
driveway and once on street). My cars have been keyed (scratched with
something metal, probably a key) in front of my residence and in my
driveway on more than a few occasions (majority of that neighborhood was
black). My roomie was raped on the front porch by a black man. Involved
in a minor traffic fender bender with a black woman I was accused of
having slowed down so she would hit me "because I was a racist". Less
than this has sent people with checkbook in hand begging to join the KKK
{name radical organization of choice here} and established them as
confirmed racist.
I could have gone that way, but the real truth of the matter is that
there is human sewage in all races. I don't hate blacks because of
this, but I *sure as hell am careful with blacks I do not know*. My
closest and dearest friend is a charming, wonderfully intelligent and
overall delightful black woman from Canada :-).
In several places where I have worked the black employees *in general*
WERE lazy, abusive, and several other unflattering descriptions. One
place we had a black guy who was the best welder I (or anyone there) had
ever seen - he could work miracles with a welder and was a really decent
person. The blacks that came in late (continually) if at all, took
severely extended breaks and lunches, got drunk and passed out in their
cars in the parking lot and who were generally OBNOXIOUS "human" beings
ended up pissing off most people in the company - not because they were,
necessarily, black, but because everyone had to work longer to make up
for the time they weren't on the job (long breaks and absents) and fix
sloppy substandard work (drunk or just not giving a damn). The sad part
of this story was that the resentment built because of the scum to where
it affected the welder. Eventually he quit to get away from the "quota
blacks". A major loss to the company, who was now so torqued about the
whole "black problem" that they weren't as open to "minorities" as they
should have been. They had been burned by the loosers and *were* leary
of blacks specifically since 4 out of 5 were poor quality workers and of
course with the welder "walking out". I mention this only because of
your statement about how backs are treated on job interviews. This
experience is apparently not uncommon from what I have heard, employers
*have* (or did at that time) to hire x% and after so much negative
experience such as the above that they experienced, they adopted the
"generalization", because it was generally true in their experience.
It certainly is NOT right, but you can see how it gets there. The good
people always suffer because of the problem people. Individual
accountability is something that does come to mind here. What to do?
Education would seem to be an answer here, but not the way it works in
american schools...
> A black young man had recently asked me
> if Jesus liked black people. That broke my heart to think that He had
> been presented in any other light. (but of course, most of the
> pictures of this Jew are with white skin and blue eyes)
Without getting into it too deeply, that representation of Jesus is
wholly inaccurate assuming that he was not "unusual" (as in albino or
some such), if you have ever done any research on that area of the
world, it just doesn't wash. Interesting to note that in other areas of
the world, the representation is not alway Jesus as lilly white :-).
> I thought
> that our friend in Malaysia would understand my statements without
> going into great detail. Yes, I could have mailed him direct,( I
> normally do when it's personal) but was hoping by putting it on the
> list to give others a chance to respond to his need. (He contributes a
> lot)
Problem with statements like this is that they are very easily
misunderstood due to the issue at large (emotional in most cases rather
than reasoned and, not infrequently milked for some other purpose).
There ARE those elements of ethnic minorities that prey on "{name color
of choice} mans guilt" for, bluntly, economic reasons.
I will have to admit to being ignorant about whatever it was that was
affecting Lew in this light. I guess I just do not base decisions about
people on their racial background. I have another girlfriend who is
also Malaysian (is that the right way to put that?) with whom I have had
enless hours of discussion of endless subjects who has taught me much
about the lifestyles, culture and so on of life there as well as
teaching me much about the Moslem religion and probably most important,
that she is a wonderful human being with whom I enjoy spending time.
English is not her first language and on more than one occasion she has
"screwed it up" to where I could have been offended, but we continue to
communicate (I'm the "ugly american" here, we talk in english :) until
it gets worked out. She has taught me some of her language and to be
real honest, she does a lot better in english than I do in Malaysian
:-).
In case Lew reads this:
Selamat Pagi, Lew! Terima kasih for all your contributions to this list!
(that is the extent of what I know :-( ). (Good morning, Lew! Thank you
for ...).
> I was also conscious of the people who don't like to wade
> through long "things", so tried to shorten my story.
IMO, not a good thing to do on this kind of subject anywhere I can think
of.
> The point to
> what I wrote was forgiveness and reconciliation,
That will work :-)! However, no one I know is abusing people *today*,
just give everyone the rights they should have as a default and get on
with it. There is no way that the injustices suffered by those long
since dead can be righted other than by possibly not doing them to the
groups in question today.
> not shame and guilt.
> I, personally, am in the business of getting people free of all that.
> But certain things have to be recognized and dealt with before the
> freedom comes. One of the most powerful things I've seen was at a
> meeting where the speaker representing the white race repented of
> racial hatred. (he had none personally)
If he "had none" then I personally view it as being partonizing.
Perhaps in the context of the meeting with those of like mind, it had
value.
Also IMO, freedom is something that can be oppressed, but not taken away
(unless, I suppose, that someone washes out your head).
> Then a black man walked up
> spontaniously and did the same and the next thing I knew black, white,
> asian people (esp. men) were all over the room were hugging, weeping,
> repenting for their own hatred. Something broke in the spirit.
Marvelous concept, what happend the next day? Things like this take
much time to actually settle in, but, perhaps things like this will help
it happen faster.
> I don't mind if you disagree with me about anything; I just was sorry
> that I wasted your valuable input to this list by an off- topic area
> over something we actual agree on.
Well, such as we do :-).
> Hope this clarified and didn't add to division.
Actually, once elaborated on and clarified, it probably ultimately ended
up doing more to promote cohesion, even as off topic as it was.
Take care, Vikki.
P.S. Any more on this, lets take it to mail.
--
Victoria Welch, WV9K, DoD#-13, Net/Sys/WebAdmin SeaStar.org,vikki.oz.net
#include <coffee.h> My web site: http://vikki.oz.net/~vikki/
"Walking on water and developing software to specification are
easy as long as both are frozen" - Edward V. Berard.
Do not unto others, that which you would not have others do unto you.
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