As far I know, yes, colloidal particles won't easily dissolve even in a strong HNO3. The HACH sodium thiosulfate protocol is a detection protocol for dissolved silver.
-----Original Message----- From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com> To: 'silver-list@eskimo.com' <silver-list@eskimo.com> Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:05 PM Subject: RE: CS Makers> measurment of Ag colloid mg/L >Thank you Stephen. > >Do you know if the digestion is required with wet spectroscopy? > >James Osbourne Holmes >a...@trail.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Quinto [SMTP:squi...@mindspring.com] >Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 8:20 AM >To: silver-list@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: CS Makers> measurment of Ag colloid mg/L > >James, >I have spoken with the Hach people way back, and we do have the sodium >thiosulfate pillows at silver reagents here. But we do all our >concentration analysis on an AA. Even so, I recall a conversation to the >effect that "you must first digest" every sample for accuracy. But that has >been disproven. If it is silver, the flame at 2300 degrees will burn it and >the spectral fingerprint will not deceive you. >Stephen >----- Original Message ----- >From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com> >To: <silver-list@eskimo.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:27 PM >Subject: RE: CS Makers> measurment of Ag colloid mg/L > > >> Hi Stephen, >> >> Yes, that is the issue; will the reagents either pull the atoms >> one-at-a-time off the clump, or will it dissolve the clump. >> >> Hach tech tried digestion with Ag sol, and the results were not reliable; >> without digesting, the process worked accurately and consistently. But I >> still wonder. >> >> James Osbourne Holmes >> a...@trail.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Quinto [SMTP:squi...@mindspring.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 2:06 PM >> To: silver-list@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: CS Makers> measurment of Ag colloid mg/L >> >> James, >> If you rely upon ionizing the particles so they react with the reagents in >> order to get a spectrophotometer reading, then you have to completely >> "digest" the sample; otherwise your reading is transient, hence >> inconclusive. >> Stephen >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com> >> To: <silver-list@eskimo.com> >> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 2:51 PM >> Subject: RE: CS Makers> measurment of Ag colloid mg/L >> >> >> > Re: Measuring the color and absorbency of sols. >> > "If the particle size is so small as to not transmit a color, how would >a >> > colorimeter possibly be used to accurately determine concentration? >> There >> > is a direct contradiction here." >> > You react the Ag with substance(s) which create another compound in >> direct >> > proportion to the available silver, and then measure with a >photodetector >> > how much light gets through. It is usually expressed in "absorbance", >or >> > how much light did not get through the sample. >> > One is the inverse of the other, but there is a math consideration which >> > makes absorbance easier to work with. >> > The color solution---in my case, a clear magenta/purple---can be >> eyeballed >> > after some experience within a few PPM-mg/l after the color forms as >the >> > silver is added to the prepared reagents. >> > In the pre-electronic age it was done by visually comparing the strength >> of >> > the color sample of the unknown with a stable prepared set of solutions >> in >> > sealed tubes representing various concentrations. >> > The instrument is zeroed to 100% transmission using a bleached [sodium >> > thiosulfate, same a photo bleach] sample of the reacted silver which is >a >> > clear medium yellow, and the readout is set to Zero. Then a test tube >or >> > cuvette of the colored sample replaces the "blank" and the amount of >> light >> > absorbed is read. >> > The measurement is made with light of a specific frequency [expressed in >> nM >> > of wavelength; i.e. color] so that you are only measuring that light >> > absorbed by the reaction product. >> > I know that I am calibrated correctly for Silver Nitrate [strongly >> ionized >> > monatomic Ag] because I can take a sample of ACS grade silver nitrate >> > which has been diluted precisely with class A volumetric flasks and >> > precision pipettes to 4.0 mg/l and the Spec reads 4.0. That is how I >> > created the slope on the graph with Absorbance up the X and >concentration >> > on the Y axis, by measuring the absorbance of 6 different precise >> > dilutions . This forms a "curve" which is really a straight line [the >> > process I am using is basically linear]. I used Excell [any >spreadsheet, >> > graphing program will probably have the same function available] to do a >> > linear regression on the string of points to make a best-fit straight >> line >> > for the graph. >> > Bob Berger gave me a great tip. Lacking a program to construct the >line, >> > view the dots representing the individual measurements at a very low >> > angle, [as in placing your head very near the surface on which the paper >> is >> > laying. Your eye will 'see' the line through to dots well enough to do >> a >> > satisfactory linear regression by eyeball and brain. You then draw it >> in. >> > At issue is the reactivity of the metal particles with the color-forming >> > reagents. >> > I do not know the precision available compared with AA spectroscopy, but >> it >> > is certainly good enough with wet chemistry to determine the Ag sol >> > concentration to at least a tenth of a mg/L. With more sophisticated >> > instruments you can move the precision over to the right, but I am not >> sure >> > how far; I don't need it and could not afford it if I did. >> > The present issue for me is: Will the reagents I am using react fully >> with >> > the metallic particles, or, as some say, it must be reduced to ionized, >> > i.e. individual "dissolved" atoms of silver. Some say firmly one and >> others >> > firmly the other. >> > Other devices measure the amount of and wavelength of light refracted, >> > reflected, and absorbed with sensors at various angles to the incident >> > beam. They then use a complex software algorithm to calculate particle >> > size. >> > Any input based on experience or a reference regarding digestion v no >> > digestion will be welcome. >> > James Osbourne Holmes >> > a...@trail.com >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: coyote [SMTP:coy...@alltel.net] >> > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:14 AM >> > To: silver-list@eskimo.com >> > Subject: Re: CS Makers >> > >> > At 04:33 PM 4/5/00 +1200, you wrote: >> > >> > >>From An earlier post of mine >> > >> > >> > ## Thanks Ivan >> > >> > I don't plan to start an arguement, I would just like this issue to be >> > cleared up or at least expanded upon and open to discussion. The dogma >> > just doesn't correlate with my personal observations. >> > >> > Therefore, I question the dogma. [Defined as 'established pat >> > answers'] >> > >> > I've heard this theory endlessly repeated and worded as though it came >> > from the same source, yet none of my chemist friends can go beyond, "I >> > guess it's possible". Of course, they don't mess with CS, but you'd >think >> > they would have at least heard of this effect in use elsewhere. I have >> > yet to find confirmation outside CS circles. >> > >> > >> > 2nd subject >> > >> > According to my Dr/PHD chemist friend, there is a newish instrument out >> > there that determines particle size using the Tyndal effect [another >> > unheard of term , at least, in the pharmeceutical research area] >> > >> > "<fontfamily><param>Arial</param>I've never heard of the Tyndal effect, >> > but I can tell you that our crystallographers use a "Lasex" particle >size >> > device which is a fiber optic cable that can be put into a suspension to >> > determine average particle size, but only after it has been >> > calibrated." >> > >> > </fontfamily> >> > >> > Anyhow, please don't take offence. I don't have an ax to grind, just >> > some logical holes to fill. Believers can believe what they want. >> > >> > >======================== >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Ah, the question of colour never dies ;-) >> > >> > > >> > >> > >I can possibly be of help here, but let me say at the outset, >> > >> > >that all CS within the accepted colour range (clear, through >> > >> > >yellow-green, yellow and gold) exhibit very good antimicrobial >> > >> > >properties. >> > >> > ### I don't doubt that and never said that any color was "bad" or even >> > that whatever produces the color is not effective. I simply don't know. >> > >> > My rule is, if it looks yukky or weird, I fill a drain with it. I've >> > filled a lot of drains. >> > >> > >> > Silver nitrate is effective, no? >> > >> > If sand were mixed in with CS, the CS would still be effective...and >the >> > sand harmless. But, neither sand or nitrates are Bredig sol pure metal >> > colloids. >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >The colour of a colloid is dependant on the particle size, and >> > >> > >how that affects the reflection, refraction and extinction of >> > >> > >visible light. The smaller the particle size the smaller the >> > >> > >wavelength of light it will absorb leaving its complimentary >> > >> > >colour to be transmitted. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Particles so small that they absorb UV light (outside the visible >> > >> > >range) transmit the full visible spectrum and look colourless. As >> > >> > >the particle size increases (by small amounts) so the wavelength >> > >> > >of the absorbed light increases, and the transmitted >> > >> > >complimentary light changes, as noted above. >> > >> > ## This begs another question. >> > >> > If the particle size is so small as to not transmit a color, how would >a >> > colorimeter possibly be used to accurately determine concentration? >> > There is a direct contradiction here. >> > >> > Also, why does that color stick to the glass after storing for several >> > weeks leaving the suspension clear yet still potent? >> > >> > Do I have defective glass? Has anyone else noticed this? Honest, it >> > happens without fail, for me at least. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Colour depth, ie the strength of a particular colour, is directly >> > >> > >proportional to the concentration of the solution (as you >> > >> > >surmise). This relationship (Beer-Lambert Law) is exploited by >> > >> > >colorimeters and spectroscopy in determining concentration of >> > >> > >solutions. >> > >> > >####I have watched unregulated batches go from clear to light yellow to >> > reddish to brown to deep brown to black. I have run clear batches of CS >> > that had various colors of deposits, stirred it up and got yellowish or >> > brown as a result. The yellow deposits are not easily seen unless >> > illuminated from below. They tend to appear under the pole that collects >> > silver fuzz. >> > >> > No question in my mind that depth of color indicates concentration of >> > "something", but what something? >> > >> > A dark color like red or blue in sufficient concentration will appear >> > black. A color like yellow can easily be 'swamped out' by a dark color >> > but whatever it is could be of a different density more easily suspended >> > in a liquid. >> > >> > ...so, perhaps it is uncharged silver oxide particles that clump >together >> > into differing sizes that account for the various colors as per the >> > theory, whereas the silver particles produced by a constant current >> > should all be the same size as well as being mostly seperated by thier >> > charge and not tending to clump. >> > >> > >> > >> > I get a distinct feeling of seperate issues being lumped together and >> > called the same thing. >> > >> > :-) Ever notice the FDA doing this? To them, Bredig sol silver >> > colloid, mild silver protien, various silver salts and compounds >> > [including 'gag' silver cyanide] are all the same thing. Similarly, I >> > never hear of pure silver in suspensions being mentioned as being a >> > seperate issue from silver oxides which are near impossible to 'not' >> > produce in low voltage systems. >> > >> > One pole produces hydrogen that usually bubbles off. [If it doesn't >> > bubble off, it may trap silver ions on the bubble surface and form that >> > grey fur.] The other pole produces pure oxygen and it's rare to see the >> > oxygen bubble off. Where does it go? It instantly combines with silver >> > ions accounting for the black stuff. [silver oxide] If it's not all on >> > the rods or on the glass, where is it? There is only one other place it >> > can be...in the water. If colored matter is mixed in water, you get >> > colored water. If it has no charge to keep it suspended..... >> > >> > Other observation of tarnish on silver tells me that silver oxides can >> > take on several colors including all those mentioned above. Granted, >> > there may be numerous chemicals floating around in the air to account >for >> > that color variation. Perhaps no relationship? >> > >> > By all indications I find it likely that, if the theory is accurate, >> > it's being applied to the wrong particle and make no mistake, there are >> > 'at least' two distinct and different molecular structures, quite easily >> > observable, present in low voltage CS production. Their location and >> > concentration varies. >> > >> > >> > A note on HVAC. If the electrodes are open to the atmosphere you'll >get >> > ozone [which will oxidize silver ions even more violently than pure >> > oxygen], nitric acid [if there is moisture and atmospheric nitrogen >> > present and since the discharge is into water...moisture is present.], >> > hydrogen and oxygen become a part of the nitric acid. So, there will >> > also be some silver nitrate made. >> > >> > If the electrodes are submerged in water, they still produce ozone, >> > oxygen and hydrogen but little or no nitric acid. If there is no current >> > control, all this stuff emulsifies into a sludge which very quickly >turns >> > black. [I have a HVAC generator that does just that in less than 4 >> > minutes] >> > >> > I understand that the leading HVAC unit isolates the electrodes from >the >> > atmosphere and doesn't allow direct contact with water. A Very good idea >> > that probably makes very good CS. >> > >> > >> > >> > Again, please don't take it personally, but the theory seems only to >> > cover part of the question in a manner that implies a statement like "We >> > don't know how to get rid of that yellow or brown color so we're going >to >> > find a way to say it's the greatest thing on Earth" and the rest goes >> > unaddressed almost as though it were swept under the carpet. >> > >> > Well, owning a new Caddy with tinted roll up windows and air >> > conditioning might be nice, but it doesn't make the traffic go away no >> > matter what the dealer tells you. >> > >> > [So much for lurking] >> > >> > k...@czen/KD'C >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >Also, keep in mind that we are talking of solutions which exhibit >> > >> > >no cloudiness. A cloudy solution contains some very large >> > >> > >particles and should be filtered. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Regards - Ivan >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >==================== >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Being new to CS making I'm a bit confused about what appears to >> > >> > >be a contradiction. Some listers brag about the nice deep golden >> > >> > >color they get in their batches, yet others are proud of their >> > >> > >clear, no color product. Which is right? Is more color better >> > >> > >than no color at all? >> > >> > >It would seem to me that if color is due to light refraction >> > >> > >caused by silver ppm then the more color the more silver ppm. >> > >> > >Please enlighten me. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Best regards, >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Art >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >----- Original Message ----- >> > >> > >From: "Kathryn Neff" <<n...@ricc.net> >> > >> > >To: "Colloidal Silver" <<silver-list@eskimo.com> >> > >> > >Sent: Tuesday, 4 April 2000 07:53 >> > >> > >Subject: CS Makers >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> Have two questions... >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> 1. Has anyone used the Silvergen machine...do you like it...does it >> > >> > >make >> > >> > >> good quality CS in your opinion...also have you used the tester that >> > >> > >is >> > >> > >> offered......you can email me privately if you wish at n...@ricc.net >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> 2. Am on a meditation list and they are talking about CS....they >> > >> > >know very >> > >> > >> little about it...and have been talking about buying some CS from >> > >> > >someone >> > >> > >> and the CS is "pink".....some is very very gold......I recall >> > >> > >reading on >> > >> > >> the list about the colors of CS....and what was not good CS and what >> > >> > >the >> > >> > >> colors meant....but I cannot find it.....can anyone send me a >> > >> > >message >> > >> > >> regarding this...so that I may post it to the meditation list....I >> > >> > >wish to >> > >> > >> let them know about what is good CS, but do not want to give a vague >> > >> > >> statement..... I guess there is a lot of stuff out there for sale >> > >> > >that is >> > >> > >> not good.....I make my own with a simply machine...but do not feel >> > >> > >qualified >> > >> > >> to give them advice.... >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Thank you, >> > >> > >> Kathy Neff >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >-- >> > >> > >The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal >> > silver. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: >> > >> > >silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com >> > >> > >with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. >> > >> > > >> > >> > >To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com >> > >> > >Silver-list archive: >> > http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html >> > >> > >List maintainer: Mike Devour <<mdev...@id.net> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> >
