Both GRS (I am using this in the third person, because I too do not know GRS's sex, and GRS's name is Gerry (I believe) which is also somewhat unclear, please don't take offense. :) ) and you Chad have things to offer. People have different ways of communicating and helping. GRS (I am only asserting my opinion after reading the news groups for so long) wants to teach the users to fish as opposed to just giving them the fish. This is one approach and, at times, is appropriate.
My belief is that with a newbie coming to the list, a more compassionate approach would be helpful with a reference to the documentation. IMO, some of the replies the GRS gives are a little gruff, but sometimes mine are too, and sometimes that is necessary.
My approach has been to create my own little FAQ with the most commonly asked user list questions and point users there in addition to the documentation and the authors site. I also try to gracious and helpful in a friendly. I have a TREMENDOUS deal of patience though. I deal with students all day that ask the same question several times, so I get adjusted to answering the same thing SEVERAL times.
Chad Smith wrote:
I didn't think this belonged on users@ - and GRRRR doesn't read emails sent direct, so I'll post it here.
Good decision, although, still probably better not making it public, but, here it is.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 08:50 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>Chad Said:
>>Why would he have? Where would he have seen that? How would he have >>known to do that? Why aren't they included in the download? > > > Because its listed on the support tab? THis says, "Documentation > Project > Templates, help guides, How-Tos, and other useful documentation for > users"
The support tab of the website? Okay, how do you know he got the program from the website? How do you know he's ever *seen* the website? He said he asked openoffice.org - that's the program, the project, the community, *AND* the website - did you ever think to ask if he's visited the website? No. You didn't. You always *assume* everyone is as all knowing as you are. You assume that everyone is completely familiar with open source, free software, and the whole freaking subculture that goes along with it. *NEWSFLASH* not everyone reads slashdot. Not everyone in the world who has a computer knows what a linux is. Not everyone is used to roll-your-own support. And the way to teach them is not to belittle their intelligence until they figure it out. It's to guide them, understanding that they may or may not have a clue what a PDF is. And I assume that everyone I talk to is completely new to this until I am given an idication otherwise. In other words, I ask. "We here at OpenOffice.org have a website. It's easy to remember, because it is the name of our program as well. Have you been there? It's full of information - including starter guides that you may find useful. Simply go to the website: http://www.openoffice.org/ and click on the tab that says "Support". There you'll find all sorts of helpful links including ones where you can download the guides...."
I would imagine the docs are not included with the download because of size restrictions. I do not know if there is a better way. Perhaps we could be a menu option under help that says, OOo Documentation that links the program automatically to the documentation site. (Having said that, I think it is an awesome idea.) <http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=44761>
You *PROUDLY* display that you are the so-called "Document Co-Lead"!!! This title (which I've never seen anywhere but on your signature line) may just carry some weight with the people you "help" on the users list. Basically, you are claiming to be one of the two top guys for OpenOffice.org when it comes to *HELPING END USERS*. I been on this list for over 18 months now, and you have constistantly displayed contempt, distain, an utter-lack of patience, and hints of a hatred toward *ANYONE* who questions the great and powerful OOo.
No GRS doesn't. It only says that GRS wrote documentation, not that GRS would be helping end users in a customer service role (which BTW, I think GRS does help a lot of people).
GRS just wants people to look first and ask questions second. This is something I think we all want. Unfortunately, this will not happen. On every list there are RTFM people type people, and they are necessary and usually very knowledgeable, because they wrote the f***ing manual. Perhaps, though, those people are not the best first line of customer service.
However, for better or worse, OOo is a doocracy (Thanks Daniel) and GRS does stuff, which is helpful, so GRS is the first line of support a lot of the times. I don't always agree with the way that GRS handles issues, but GRS handles them and is probably the most active poster on the users list. For that GRS has to be given some credit. I would bet, not real stats here, that GRS has kept more users that GRS has driven away.
If you are, indeed, the Co-Lead of documentation for OpenOffice.org - why *can't* I question you about the lack of DOCUMENTATION included in the downloads? If you are the Co-Lead of documentation for OpenOffice.org, why don't you try *ADVERTISING* the documentation, instead of chastising people for not using it. I said before, and I'll say it again, you're constant berating of anyone who *ASKS A QUESTION* on the *USERS* list astounds me, and it leads me to believe that you, yes you, personally, GRRRRRRRRRR Singleton, are the #1 WORST spokesman-spokesperon-spokeswoman (whatever you are, GRRR can stand for anything, male or female - I think it best for me not to try and guess), for OpenOffice.org I've ever seen. I'm glad when I first showed up here, fresh off the turnip truck back in '03, before I knew what an "open source" was, I'm glad that *you* we're the first person I talked to. I would have turned tail and run.
GRS does advertise the documentation. The issue is that you don't like that way GRS advertises it. I GRS could do it a more pleasant way, but that is GRS's style. If you read GRS's post and feel it is too gruff, send a second, gentler reply, I know I have, to help assuage the user.
> As to why they are not included is not something over which I have > control so keep your stupid remarks to yourself or get involved with the > releases project.
I have been involved. I'm not currently because I have a life outside of this mailing list, and I've had things to deal with. But I doubt you could ever understand that, because to you, nothing matters but OOo. Which is ironic, because you are hindering it at every given opportunity.
So, it is not that GRS won't answer your question, it is that it is not GRS's decision. You should be asking the community council or the release project it appears.
> Gosh, I would reasonably expect any intelligent user to take advantage > of the tabs. Anyone but you that is.
You can expect all you want, GRRRRRRRRR, but I'd think it would be better to try and *HELP* them, instead of insulting them for not knowing. If someone finds their way to the mailing list (which is a feat in and of itself) and they have a question - it would best for OpenOffice.org for us to *ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION* instead of saying "that is answered in the all-powerful MANUAL, look it up, moron!"
I think there is a balance. If it is a newbie, I think the question should be answered with reference to the manual (do both). It if is a user who has been around for a while and is asking a question because they are lazy (this requires some judgment on our part) perhaps they can be reminded that there is documentation and other info available.
>>Which, again, could have/should have been pointed out to the newbie >>without malice or frustration. If you choose to volunteer your time >>helping users, you really should try to *HELP* them, instead of >>insulting them. > > Well I am not omniscient like you so I guess that even to most naive > user would at least check what is available.
I'm not the one who assumes that everyone in the world knows everything about OpenOffice.org like *I* do. That's your opinion, not mine. I'm just a normal guy who has too much time on my hands so I (used to, haven't in a while), like to read these messages and throw out an answer or two, if I've somehow found them before.
> As to this OP, I tool umbrage at his harangue just as it have at yours.
You tool umbrage at his harangue??? Okay. Me, I might have just got offended. But if you want to tool umbrage, feel free. Maybe with someone who talks and types like that as the Co-Lead of the Documentation, I can understand why the help is unhelpful.
Is that a Harry Potter reference?
And, what kind of message is *that* sending anyway? The Co-Lead of the Documentation of OpenOffice.org thinks the help is unhelpful?!?! can't *You* Mr/Ms GRRR Singleton Co-Lead of Documentation for OpenOffice.org - don't *YOU* have the power to change that? I mean, if the Co-Lead of Documentation can't fix the help - can it ever be fixed?
> You are not helpful have never been helpful and you are insulting at the > best of times. So thank you and go away.
I'm insulting to you because you need to be insulted. You have such a low opinion of everyone who comes on the list and asks a question (HORRORS! Someone DARES to ask a question on the USERS list!!!) that I can only imagine the inflated ego you have - especially with your self-appointed title of "Co-Lead of the Documentation".
I have a feeling, that this type of confrontation will not change whatever it is you feel needs to be changed about GRS. Perhaps GRS could be more patient and customer service oriented on the list but, as I have said, we need to appreciate each other for what we bring to the table. GRS has a vast knowledge of OOo and has written a complete manual. You have a good knowledge of Open Source and MS and can give an honest opinion on them and can keep the Open Source only people in check when the blindly hate MS software.
> Chad you are being ridiculous. It's too bad. Again the resources are > there when you look. I did not design the main page but it is under > revision but I see you have not involved yourself to take care of these > concerns of yours. Therefore shut up.
Because I haven't, done what, insulted enough end users this month? I
can't have an opinion. Okay, how about I meet my condenseding quota on you?
> THe mailing list link on the main page offers many alternatives to > individual emails from the list. If you think it is spam then > unsubscribe.
I agree - but if you sign up at 8pm at night, and post a question. Then go to bed, and wake up with 300 emails, 298 of which are from OpenOffice.org - I would call that SPAM too. Especially if I've never used a mailing list like this before. I was pretty shocked the first time I signed up, and it had much less traffic back then. I was excited about it though, myself, because I liked the idea of so many people talking about technology and software and freedom. Not everyone sees it that way. I can *COMPLETELY* understand the man's point about being flooded with stuff that doesn't relate to him.
Perhaps you should file and issue to the www project about adding a disclaimer by the users list sign up saying that this list gets A LOT of traffic.
>>>In other words OOo is not a commercial enterprize and none of us get >>>paid. Were you expecting paid support? >> >>I don't believe he ever said that. > > WHy?
because he didn't say it. The OP didn't say "I expect paid support." What's so hard to understand about why I don't believe he said that - because he didn't say it. It's very very simple, GRRRRR. Even a end-user can understand it.
>>If you want OpenOffice.org (or any "open" or "free" program for that >>matter) to compete with Microsoft, then you have to stop making excuses >>for the areas where it miserably falls short. If OOo is "good enough" - >>then it is good enough all around. If it is not, don't claim it is. >>Don't say any end user could pick it up and replace MSO with it, if >>they, indeed, cannot. Either OOo is a high end product with good >>support, or it isn't. Don't try to have it both ways. "We're AWESOME! >> We have Milllions! of users!!!" and in the next breath "What do you >>expect for free? Sheesh!" You are totally sending mixed messages. >> > > > Get involved, Chad. I have.
I'm not the one who said that OOo can't compete with the support of Microsoft because it's free. You did. You are the one who brought up paid support as if it were the measure of good support - not me, and not the OP. You, the Co-Lead of Documentation for OpenOffice.org - YOU made it sound like OOo's support sucks because it's free, and if the OP, or anyone wants to complain about it - they should go somewhere else and pay for it. I think OOo's support system is pretty good for free. In fact, I've gotten more help personally from OOo's support system then I ever did from Microsoft - paid or otherwise. You seem to think it's not that good.
MS has support? Not for normal people, maybe for businesses who pay. Which, I would imagine, if someone wanted to pay me, I would support their OOo.
>>>You, of course, may purchase MSO. (At least I hope you purchase it) >>So now you're telling the guy to buy Microsoft Office? You're a real >>supporter of OSS, aren't you? "Can't deal with *THE PRESSURE*, Punk?!? >>Don't know how to RTFM!?!? n00b!!? You can always go Microsoft! AND I >>HOPE YOU DO!" What a great slogan for OpenOffice.org! > > I didn't liek what he said. I do not particularly like what you are > saying either. If you want MSO buy it. Don't steal it.
So if you, Mr/s. GRRRRR Singleton, Co-Lead of Documenation for OpenOffice.org - if YOU don't like what someone says - then they should go buy MSO and leave your precious OOo alone? Right... I guess you'd be the only one using OOo after a while huh? And maybe now you see why I say you are the worst ad OOo could ever ask for - and the best for Microsoft.
I will keep using OOo even with GRS around. :)
> You hone them the way you have. get stuffed.
This doesn't even make since. I might just tool some umbrage from your honing of my harauge if you're not careful.
Hopefully we can learn to live together both of you, and all volunteers can be useful and helpful to OOo. If you don't like something, fix it. OOo is a doocracy.
Have a good day. -- Peter T. Kupfer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
