Just to clarify Tim. I gave you a reason for the business buy-in for greater control of 'look' through the pipeline (and over time) but the technical bias I have is that I'm far more familiar with the Houdini Python API than I am with the Katana API (and with Vex vs LUA). From my admittedly spewed perspective, I also believe the documentation of the Houdini Python API is better than the Katana equivalent.
My original questions arose from the acknowledgement that my own views are skewed by a bias based on my existing knowledge of Houdini, which by far outweighs my knowledge of Katata. On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 19:51, Jonathan Moore <jonathan.moo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ref Clarisse Angus, I'm a massive fan. In many ways it's design philosophy > is very similar to Katana. The downside is that it only comes with it's own > renderer. > > For environmental shots and matte painting it seems to be the go to > solution and further than that, I think it's DNEG that have brought on > board for all their broadcast output. But they also use Katana for the > features pipeline. > > Katana being Redshift friendly is a big plus point over Clarisse, and over > the next 12-18 months, RenderMan, 3Delight and Arnold will have their own > GPU solutions too, so that's another black cross Clarisse. And outside of > indie licenses Clarisse is that much cheaper than Katana. > > Great product none the less, I just wish they allowed 3rd party renderers, > even though they may break many of Clarisse's biggest selling points such > as the fluidly of the viewport with multi-million poly assets. > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 19:39, Jonathan Moore <jonathan.moo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Katana might be overkill for that. But it’s not entirely clear >>> specifically what kind of work they need to do, specifically. >> >> >> The reason that Katana has come into the equation is that the client is >> looking for greater control on 'look' over and extended period of time. The >> nature of advertising has changed drastically over the last 10-15 years. >> Advertising budgets first saw a shift to online spend (which frankly wasn't >> very interesting from a production perspective) but the last 5-10 years >> have seen a shift into a range of 'experiential' content with long form >> filmic content distributed through various digital channels and >> experiential situations (attempting to avoid the words AR/VR here and oops >> just failed!). And within all this flux the lines have blurred between the >> creative idea space of advertising agencies and what multi-form content >> production facilities have been doing outside of their core 'VFX' output. >> Elements of the advertising industry are attempting to muscle back a bit of >> client relationship control they lost to the smarter production facilities. >> >> So where does Katana/Houdini fit into this? One of the problems with all >> these emerging new channels for clients to spend their money is that >> consistency of the way brand assets are presented over time has been less >> than ideal. And this is a key area where advertising/branding agencies are >> strong, so anything that enables them muscle back as the key client >> creative partner is something seen as being a worthwhile investment. >> They're not creating feature length content, but over the same time period >> of a typical feature production, the client can often be creating more >> content for distribution through different channels. The challenges are not >> so very different to managing a major show from a project/production >> management perspective. >> >> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 17:48, Angus Davidson <angus.david...@wits.ac.za> >> wrote: >> >>> Octane stand alone is an amazing piece of software. We use it at Wits >>> for our student renderings. Incredibly fast and powerful. Its what Shake >>> would have been as a 3d renderer ;) >>> >>> -- >>> ICT Project Manager >>> Digital Arts >>> Wits School of the Arts >>> angus.david...@wits.ac.za >>> 011 717 4683 >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ >>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Ivan Vasiljevic [ >>> klebed...@gmail.com] >>> *Sent:* 05 July 2018 05:30 PM >>> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing List. >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=MPm-zNEb4r-m30y02cfVngo_JjYaZuiBXACjwkOFnLE&s=GDeiED44zSuk6uOUQnQoAdtWMjqh14XrM0JDa5CVg5g&e= >>> <https://u7507473.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=5SmYwFIJXHmC5X9wAP0G6mg4oLGBuQENbeDkYXezg3m6vjHxJcC6rUMd8QE2MtqzowgyFFK4aAsDEzrdrVTV4Q6qbgbc-2FgnnpGob6G467zR75G56-2BuWz1AMtPXsoVdDXV-2BcQeKP7tI8SfI-2Feh9je40vvx3436uOx6vrklEqpeyqPKkXVPfz6qMRHJd0eOKIePEN0YAL37Luq9jdMxwUQ-2B-2BRd-2BzZt2T9VxBgS-2F7-2BNUnvG9z9TmWmFS-2B4uEd-2BDR5tjkjuwZSTUuyURU-2By5w2UWlS4ZNwN4c-2F67AZ-2BdnKQaztojTzqDhUBjfP8FL4zumZ4v-2BWobsnSntyG5PSLT0vB8DUIEeTL-2FVQT3jFmvgylaBo6z0LxsbbJSklugb0QF9uKrE0riw3NXAo39SWaLN2U3cQ-3D-3D_8oxW4HKyAHmpsFLR5-2FCi07AjfPcvdujiFz-2FAu1T5li25QaVlA-2Bnhzs13OR7b2KlqImDzJo0knT4losH-2Fpm6QtuHLRJHQjquBo2aU4eWuiozg3HUbInrS7fIIwL5L3ko46dbiKixHZFb3LSxwqZSvTxfebbiAhE43g1toE-2B-2FQinCb-2FLLwoZfxIUGzzBCfQGUWdVDlP0-2F4quJkCwpULSVw4QzoWfwjKsb5ZDQ2hP-2Fqvqk-3D> >>> *Subject:* Re: Anybody here have a view on Houdini vs Katana for >>> lookdev/lighting workflows. >>> >>> I know this is totally out of your focus but have you tried Octane >>> Standalone? >>> You also do have it as Houdini plugin and it can easily transfer >>> complete scene data to a standalone app for further look dev/rendering, >>> with a single click of a button... >>> >>> Just my 2ct. >>> >>> Cheers. >>> Ivan >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 4:59 PM Tim Crowson <tcrow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I used Katana at MPC, and lately have been using Houdini at Method. >>>> Bear in mind that my use of these products has been for feature films, with >>>> medium to heavy shot content. I have not used them in any other context. >>>> Bear in mind also that both platforms (because that’s really what they are) >>>> require some degree of custom development to achieve efficiency in lighting >>>> (as I define efficiency, at least). >>>> >>>> I far prefer Katana. >>>> >>>> In my view Katana makes it FAR easier to manage scene data without >>>> losing your mind. K is also much more elegant in how it handles per-pass >>>> overrides. Houdini’s options for per-ROP overrides (on things that are not >>>> the ROP itself, which is vital to be able to do) are problematic for me, >>>> personally. >>>> >>>> Katana also makes it much easier to read the state of things, simply by >>>> looking at the graph. Houdini’s paradigm presents you with a bunch of >>>> disconnected nodes that don’t seem to be related at all, forcing you to >>>> inspect parameters to see what is going on. You adapt to that, but it does >>>> create extra mental steps that have to be taken while working. One of my >>>> pet peeves is the single-line string field used in the Objects tab on ROPs. >>>> It’s a good deal of work to properly read that kind of field, even on mild >>>> shots. It’s just a space-delineated list of paths. Translating that into >>>> meaningful information takes more time than it should. >>>> >>>> Houdini’s takes are interesting, although the pros where I am never use >>>> them because of awful past experiences. And the few times I have tried to >>>> use them they bugged out and simply didn’t work reliably. Besides, at the >>>> conceptual level, I don’t agree with storing scene states (or overrides) >>>> abstracted from a ROP, *unless* you can combine them later. You wind up >>>> making one take per ROP, which then makes me wonder why they aren’t just >>>> stored on the ROP in the first place. >>>> >>>> Katana make sure it incredibly easy, in my view, to not only visualize >>>> the data flow, but also to assetize the overrides themselves, for use >>>> elsewhere or in other Katana files, combined in any way you like. >>>> >>>> On the lookdev and lighting fronts alike, Katana’s CEL statements >>>> absolutely demolish the equivalent syntax available in Houdini. CEL >>>> statements are simply more advanced and “smarter” in what they let you >>>> target within a scene graph. >>>> >>>> For me, lighting especially comes down to efficient data management. In >>>> film it’s far more technical of a discipline than people think. The >>>> artistic part can be done pretty quickly. Managing how a shot is broken >>>> down into layers, in a way that makes responsible use of available >>>> resources, is the bigger challenge. And in my view Katana is the king here >>>> (though Image Engine’s Gaffer is very similar, from what I understand). >>>> >>>> I have been using Houdini lately on Aquaman and I guess it’s the stress >>>> of production building up, but it’s really just getting on my nerves. Seems >>>> like there are far too many possible points of failure and bugs, unless you >>>> design a strong custom UX front end, and that’s a lot of work. Getting >>>> Katana up to production-ready status requires less development effort, in >>>> my view. >>>> >>>> But there is that insane Foundry price tag... >>>> >>>> I am curious to hear from others, because my exposure to Houdini is >>>> admittedly limited. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Moore < >>>> jonathan.moo...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I have a client (an advertising network with their own production >>>>> facilities) that currently have a pipeline involving Maya and Houdini with >>>>> RenderMan and Redshift as rendering options. There's a smattering of Max >>>>> and Modo for asset creation but that's beyond the scope of my enquiry. >>>>> >>>>> We're currently going through the process of deciding whether Katana >>>>> would be an effective tool to add to their pipeline as their are moving >>>>> into longer form branded content as well as their existing advertising >>>>> output. >>>>> >>>>> I have a major cognitive bias going into this assessment that Houdini >>>>> can be used for Katana style deferred rendering workflows as well as it's >>>>> FX bread and butter. Introducing Katana will come at a considerable cost >>>>> so >>>>> I'm wondering what others think and feel about Katana, particularly if >>>>> they've already gone through a similar thought process. It doesn't matter >>>>> whether you use Katana in you pipeline (or have used it in the past) I'm >>>>> just looking for any considered views ref Katana benefits. >>>>> >>>>> And Jordi, if you're reading this, I would love your take on Houdini >>>>> as a lookdev/lighting toolset as I understand that's exactly how you use >>>>> it >>>>> at Framestore. >>>>> >>>>> Funnily enough, the more deeply I research this, the more I'm reminded >>>>> how ahead of the game the Softimage team were. The whole models workflow >>>>> (and underlying philosophy) was incredibly flexible as well as powerful. >>>>> Sure it had some gnarly aspects much like any referencing system (from >>>>> what >>>>> I hear, Katana it littered with these referencing cul-de-sac's too). >>>>> >>>>> My internal bias towards Houdini is that is has so many strengths with >>>>> regard to deferred procedural loading, packed disc primitives etc etc, and >>>>> to be frank, shading networks in Katana suck right now. Plus Houdini >>>>> pretty >>>>> much invented the nodal shading game with VOPs. >>>>> >>>>> As a positive for Katana, I'm really impressed with the 3delight >>>>> integration, and it's promise of seamless a seamless pipe with Maya (a >>>>> necessary evil not a preferred choice). I've always had a soft spot for >>>>> 3delight and the new OSL driven, artist centric presentation layer/UX is >>>>> something that connects with my own thoughts about delivering flexible >>>>> rendering power without the need to have all the wiring on show. >>>>> >>>>> Apologies for the lengthy post. I'm hopping that one or two of you >>>>> have gone through similar considerations as you've gradually planned your >>>>> move away from Soft. >>>>> >>>>> As ever, thanks in advance. >>>>> >>>>> jm >>>>> ------ >>>>> Softimage Mailing List. >>>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com >>>>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm. >>>> >>>> ------ >>>> Softimage Mailing List. >>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com >>>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ivan Vasiljevic >>> - >>> Lighting TD >>> Founder, Digital Asset Tailors >>> - >>> web: >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__digitalassettailors.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=MPm-zNEb4r-m30y02cfVngo_JjYaZuiBXACjwkOFnLE&s=VQLeB6b0irP_Xh5ODOzUrC1Olsl5FA6l-cVuAgHVkYo&e= >>> <https://u7507473.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=5SmYwFIJXHmC5X9wAP0G6iB4H67OtDu1LYz6krlc8-2FqBeLCXrELBQVbfMn71cNywwCM9MLKQNt6NvY2bdnUVgiRuzEw0g0OZUwVhB4KIDvkjTtq34l13Jmfjgwg01isCCK511SfOUct9zBCzgDFFRO-2FaVrThr3vNXUM7RiWhBe-2BeNhsuRVYy8WcsXk6VbpXImEfuRQawGiawr4d49P-2FHnLnlELB9OOSGEp8kBIqiFZxa2fSH2uroog4eQsi5i0iGOvAlBanKasL72X371xL3Z1-2FMAUK-2F1-2Bn7d4-2Fi9jwJGmD-2FXB0QlJXgqMM4kstz-2Fm56HjIsU-2BkoNKiHaHAxbA8n7qCi7fJECJ12MiQJpTrx2jdKAVEl2TMRQhLEtTciPrq5aAxaLUdKNNFq3mJIfJtqA7-2FFJ8GGgATrqcO3MoIhrHZQxjkSOkXOkv57uT7TEncENffx6EqOVcFIQtM4g-2FX4ePSFWhHJ0FWM-2BUMDwUd00CC5aSEBd4WCbiCXWtzB1jKl-2BIlVBuTaFD9gme8nKmtykTJiTxTH3yI8Uz7xt4zKRasDXlcQD6m-2FBpU045xaqmIwTeuDzOTF6VuU5uLvHgdCZJvd97ooXEBMJPguIwQrCHAtknxaZUApNlnfuSaeH5zQ1mdzVrHCanT68AgJyW72NosWlNRGBeIg28p-2Ft9HVWPWv-2BYS8U4AOGMoYnOGynRgGUwAV8abiItqaWd6SorCOy8VKwJWTAJKpPmvEVuO7HUfSuNz6b4hH2lY5e7GVucFD4WPhCwiLi6TsVyqdZ4GW-2BQtBHiGX9F8oOYnLJv3nNarBW1YH3MkoaA8MgToJcaeV-2BejlEUqjQRTk-2FIRByLdXbXvvnFAiOuEyoVb8tTtBK58jM1ZDT2xsfyvRSzJn5x2pw9uvcpGXcYSrzZgx-2BAYOcJ6rvylKvCGkp4Bj3DXDQAIp8BinfuHGd-2FGhqBjmN3tLmM-2BGWLaTTJKX98b7WJ1Y3Ie-2BBbvo5KiqHrKJG8hC2I-2B1SI4tPDrr3R-2B7d4mEmqsUyAARqujsePErfjWNy5pin7RKsbnzMwnScD9Ib9gsqaya5nNE3Scqmx1kyvb11xXITiqQ2jerYt2WnSTOyFcievJVLY-2Bl0R0Uit9jHvjP25X6-2Bti5P2WysQ-2BmgQhzYDycZwrBvl2-2Fs0g9qQprMD-2FbLIsfKFZxPxkU2RaIbFqyhjKBjntW8LxmLrQ3HCF0eoXO-2Fhn239Otjs5Mi4WJas50OiTxzav1Fy0R-2FHgTWNPcLKRvTNamQ7b-2FblM-2F-2FBsFcqDHR4Xj-2F-2FsL0qTN8khxjcKbQ5yMjg8PnmPz9AsUcnrIrI749QaNoO2SFgVyyUPj36YrliK9yF7G2IpuusXqs2ulo9UPSDoQq-2BT8MCDOJT5a6WfqCw-2FnX6SZ9QjwL3lpCmswmlDf9cSnthexOfWl96GiP12Fs2qm3N6SExZTvxfco6AWikHcl-2Bariyv9zUsNUXj3uCOYUGRdNq4wXCtbFBUfdaXIDGWqwnlCXRaoNxYL0Y87SrS-2Fv11RHi-2B7KnF3gaLbgiyA0mWYEn180UKC-2BOLHTUtzFTwCkSz-2BxTXv7vmxhyZYiPQK4oHn7J8cGMh072mp4j8tGXQGUgod4vOuuC-2BbaBW6RevAgVTnjIHtI6Zhdv6m8nv9mJJXxz4o6tW-2BxHddVIfnyqnfvVW4wh1QtS-2B3OTDTLubvhuwZiFmKSbds8061JWx085S3PkxwCapzAALYpKUSroij1EyTo-2FeaJxjtA1GY0P677Fy6HvbJneZE7OyD5qsvqZQGpVwqQ2qQEdF-2B7osX16uiIhEO2WurvGdsU2h82lk5Bo74qmn1Lv-2F-2F-2F6tzh7ZxpQGKXRyE7febj-2BgGhRpxNms5bxo9gBapZK1BWqK8becfkEu9JWRQMTO1gK7bz92JPZraSnDCjEUrSviztWJV9IoFYs8P7GmpkAtGJ64PxsWlptpo-2FCLkRTTxhkMXfq2qLnlwQ6EdtKuNiON3BdSjhjrztZK2a1x-2Bh4xgbyZ9-2F-2BqGyp-2BWAyKCGCPp1t5axh1WNsbPQkEKeR5EyHdQLm9WSLvzrhDJYmICt2GvZtZ1RGsUlmqvRsSFcao9-2FkWhc8gCuY4B-2F6fRmaU6UOKu5HnPvG2illWEgisEOeFHk1JOxVRQauPh7Ispfhc6qTlkFB9GrSfWizEgkvEZ5DuCeokygY26lzHaY-2Bp2HrqGXLx-2FfaIajd2nmZ1Nb6vEvsoz-2Bpnt9GrB73OzGJMYYfN0nn9ci-2FlqJPblGKqJNI9kfFZzMGGPVj7vNzeN6amTt6VnRuu6vwnH89lxXF3BeFVWeYpo3f9Qxj6sYr6HvvwLDA-3D-3D_8oxW4HKyAHmpsFLR5-2FCi07AjfPcvdujiFz-2FAu1T5li25QaVlA-2Bnhzs13OR7b2KlqImDzJo0knT4losH-2Fpm6Qttt0enyoRfGjpv3x-2FJQFLTMY8DeE81XrhjvBkKI3kkoGhvtBfoBm7ZbtsOhbs-2F-2Bx4qn-2FPTvsH5ha0wuvnnwB07e4t-2BvTvNyjCFoJHNkGu71O0NnXKSG-2BJeF1j-2BOANvB7PBKKqOx8HiV-2B3ICTok8avHI-3D> >>> email: i...@digitalassettailors.com >>> >>> >>> This communication is intended for the addressee only. 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