Hi Mattyo I can see where you are coming from and appreciate you have experience living and working in all three of the environments you were discussing (US, UK, Europe). I have a similar history (with a couple of other places thrown in for good measure) and appreciate travel puts things in context. But spectre is the sort of place where experience like our's tends to be typical. My feeling is that there is no need for a tirade. Whilst I do not want to point at anybody there might be something in the folk myth that Americans are the least travelled and most insular of people's (we all know the statistics about most American's not having passports). Perhaps it's about glass houses...
best Simon On 5 Aug 2011, at 18:36, mattyo wrote: > Hi Simon, > > My tirade was mostly directed at continental Europe, but I didn't want to bog > myself down with qualifications, although I was thinking "this isnt really > true in the UK" at various points while I was writing. > > I know the UK is, as I said, no Germany, although I do meet loads of people > at festivals whose tab was picked up by the British Council. Prins Bernhard > Fonds doesn't support artist directly either, I think -- my point is that > funding may not be direct, and can be indirect in many ways. > > Note that I said "free or extremely inexpensive education." Not to get > self-pitying here, but £3,500 will buy you about two months at NYU. I'm > well aware that those rates are disappearing as well, but again, I never > really considered the UK Europe, exactly. > > I am by no means claiming that Europe (and particularly the UK) was the land > of milk and honey, while all us poor suckers scrape for grubs in the US. I > have lived in the Netherlands and London, and I know the deal. My point was > mostly the extent to which many continental europeans are simply unaware of > the depth of the sea that they swim in. > > \M > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Simon Biggs wrote: > >> I'd like to correct errors in Mattyo's post. The British Council does not >> fund artists directly. It funds organisations to assist them to bring UK >> artists to non-UK events. The objective is to promote UK culture overseas. >> They do not cover artist fees. They will assist with travel and marketing >> costs but would not consider fully funding the costs. They only contribute a >> percentage. Their funds are extremely limited. In last year's bonfire of UK >> Qangos the British Council was on the long list of those to be closed down. >> It was reprieved, but with its wings further clipped. >> >> The Arts Council is the body that funds UK artists at home. However, since >> the 1990's it has very limited funds for direct funding and tends to operate >> by funding third party organisations (museums, galleries, theatres, etc) to >> commission artists to produce work. This includes a few organisations that >> focus on experimental work but most of the money goes to companies that are >> driven, more or less, by audience demand (eg: Royal Opera, Royal Ballet, >> National Theatre, Tate). That is not a recipe for risk but it does keep UK >> museums mostly free to access. This benefits UK residents but also tourists. >> >> As for art education...where did the idea it was free in the UK come from? >> Current fees in England and Wales are £3,500 per year for UK/EU citizens and >> £10,000 plus for non-EU. This will rise to £9,000 in 2012 for UK/EU students >> and £12,000 plus for non-EU. Some degrees are now up to £27,000 per year >> (MBA's, for example). The basic cost of a degree in the fine arts, including >> foundation year, is therefore around £28,000 just in fees. This is inline >> with costs in the US state sector. >> >> There is no rent control in the UK. There are no subsidised work spaces I am >> aware of. Squatting is illegal and squatters are criminalised. Unemployment >> is only available for a limited period, after which you are on your own. >> There is no employment insurance system to speak of. We do have free health >> but it costs every tax payer 11% of their pay packet so it is not really >> free. But it is cheaper than what it costs the average US citizen in medical >> insurance. It's not so much about how the system is paid for but how >> efficient it is. >> >> Generally the UK system is similar to that in other anglo-saxon countries, >> like the US, Canada and Australia. As for Europe, each country is different >> and many have more generous systems than that in the US (or the UK), but not >> all. It is also about culture. In the States there is a culture of >> benevolence (corporate and individual) that does not exist in Europe. >> Successive UK governments have encouraged business to give to the arts and >> other sectors but till now this has been largely unsuccessful. The tax >> breaks you have in the US do not exist here. You should also note that >> personal and corporate taxation is far higher in Europe and equivalent >> salaries lower than in the US. I would double my salary working in the >> States and pay 15% less tax, tripling my take home pay (which would help >> with the medical bills). Of course, if I didn't have a job I'd be better off >> here. >> >> The other points Mattyo makes are all good - but I wanted to clarify what >> the situation is in the UK. >> >> best >> >> Simon >> >> >> On 5 Aug 2011, at 16:31, mattyo wrote: >> >>> As a New Yorker working in the digital arts who lived in the Netherlands >>> for seven years, I've seen both sides of this situation, and I'm familiar >>> with some of the Dutch institutions mentioned below. I have thought a >>> great deal about the differences between the European and American systems >>> of arts funding, both of which, I believe have certain advantages and >>> disadvantages. Apropos of Josephine's comments, I'd like to point out >>> certain blind spots I've often seen amongst European artists regarding >>> their relationship to state support of art. >>> >>> Regarding the expectation of state funding on the part of European artists, >>> although Josephine is right in the sense that most artists are not having >>> checks made out to them by the Prins Bernhard Fonds or the British Council, >>> the state is supporting artist-friendly infrastructure in many indirect >>> ways: Subsidized venues with reasonably good technology, often some money >>> to actually get paid for a show (not much maybe, but €150 for a show is a >>> lot more than I'm making playing for the door in New York), free or >>> extremely inexpensive art education -- these are all forms of state support >>> for the arts which European artists expect, but do not necessarly identify >>> as state support as such. >>> >>> That is not to mention larger infrastructural state support which makes an >>> artist's lifestyle easier: A housing system which (this varies from >>> country to country, obviously) keeps rents under control, low or free >>> medical insurance, subsidized workspaces -- all these are a kind of state >>> support which is taken so much for granted in European social democracies >>> that they are invisible to locals, but unquestionably amounts to state >>> support for art. >>> >>> Regarding the institutions such as V2_ (I remember going there back when it >>> was a squat!), I once again have to point out that the social system which >>> once made squatting so easy to do in the Netherlands is yet another form of >>> indirect state support for the arts and youth culture in general. (Sadly, >>> the Dutch squatting scene has been under strong attack the past few years, >>> and thus making starting new initiatives progressively more difficult.) >>> Not having the National Guard show up and kick you out of your squatted >>> building, as has happened here in New York, and permitting people to use a >>> perhaps rickety but nevertheless rent-free space to make things happen, is >>> in itself a subsidy. >>> >>> This is in no way intended to belittle the vast amounts of energy, >>> imagination, and sheer hard work that goes into setting up these >>> initiatives, and I am in no way belittling them -- I wish it was more >>> possible over here, and I envy the social cohesion and artistic ferment >>> they make possible. In the course of touring I've seen squats from one end >>> of the continent to the other, and I am consistently impressed by the work >>> people do and what they make possible. However, to pretend the tolerance >>> and tacit assistance of the state is not involved is not unlike the >>> American belief that we shouldn't have to pay any taxes because God put >>> roads and bridges miraculously across the country. >>> >>> (Sonic Acts, by the way, was started by the Sound and Image department of >>> the Royal Conservatory in Den Haag -- I was there at the time -- not >>> exactly a ground-up initiative.) >>> >>> I disagree with many of Julian's conclusions -- the situation we have here, >>> where one is constantly having to play the supplicant before many masters >>> does not particularly guarantee any additional degree of freedom. The >>> director of the NEA goes to the same parties as the director of the Ford >>> foundation, and very few donor organizations want to tempt the wrath of the >>> Republicans. Also, these foundations can be fickle, and it can be >>> extraordinarily difficult to build up something with no guarantee of >>> regular support. If the X foundation decides they aren't interested in >>> media work anymore, or they decide you're not fufilling your community >>> outreach goals, you're stuck. >>> >>> the crowdsourcing approach to funding is yet another route by which artists >>> are forced into self-exploitative situations. As if it isn't bad enough >>> that it is virtually impossible to make more than beer money from one's >>> work, we are then expected to subsidize our friend's projects with money >>> from our day jobs. This is a surrender to a wholly atomized culture with >>> no sense of a commons, which I'm living through right now, and it's no >>> picnic on any level, artist, economic, or cultural. >>> >>> I also disagree with his characterization of poor arts funding as a New >>> World phenomenon -- I think it's roots are more Anglo-Saxon (we had >>> Thatcher before Reagan), and from my time in England, it's no Germany as >>> far as funding goes. >>> >>> The cuts in the Netherlands will make the entire country unrecognizable to >>> many of us in a few years: As the institutional and educational >>> infrastructure is dismantled, it will cease to be a haven for international >>> artists, and the vibrant scene there will suffer badly as a result. >>> (Personally, I think that is part of the VVD-CDA coalition program: get >>> those foreign weirdos out of the country!) >>> >>> >>> That said, julian's points about the state of the arts in Europe are not >>> invalid, and deep infrastructural support in much of Europe is simply a >>> fact. Stating it is by no means kicking colleagues -- it is something >>> European artists should be proud of and fight for. >>> >>> >>> -- Mattthew Ostrowski >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2011, at 4:09 AM, Josephine Bosma wrote: >>> >>>> Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into debate about most of the >>>> presumptions and insinuations in Julian Oliver's text. Let me just say it >>>> seems written from prejudice rather than knowledge. Prejudice about how >>>> funding bodies work, for example. To simply call them 'the state' or 'the >>>> government' is utterly simplistic. There are two statements in this >>>> article I want to take out in particular. There is NO basis for these at >>>> all. >>>> >>>>> The Netherlands, Britain and most of Scandinavia especially are >>>>> countries with a strong history of state support for the arts; >>>>> development of a >>>>> work of new media in these countries in particular often comes with an >>>>> expectation of state support. >>>> >>>> This is nonsense. Surely you will find artists working this way, but for >>>> every single one of them you will find at least three or four that don't. >>>> >>>>> In June 2011 Zijlstra, the Dutch minister for culture, announced a 200 >>>>> million >>>>> Euro cut to infrastructural funding in the arts sector. It may be the >>>>> death >>>>> knell for a great many organizations and initiatives throughout the >>>>> Netherlands, some of which are considered to be canonical to the >>>>> international >>>>> media-arts scene (V2_, Sonic Acts, Mediamatic, NIMK, STEIM, to name a >>>>> few). >>>>> >>>>> Many organizations under the axe where born directly out of arts funding >>>>> and >>>>> have benefited from persistent support from the Dutch state since their >>>>> inception. >>>> >>>> V2 was born from a squatters/artists initiative, and worked as such for >>>> many years before it got regular funding. Similar stories for Mediamatic >>>> and NIMk. I am less familiar with the histories of Steim and Sonic Acts, >>>> but I am pretty sure these were also started from artists enthusiastically >>>> setting up something that became important, interesting and influential >>>> enough to get funding at some point. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Meanwhile the tax-payer's conscious or unconscious >>>>> investment in these fields (resulting in projects and vast, specialist >>>>> bodies >>>>> of knowledge) will likely go unarchived, even lost altogether; a shell of >>>>> documentation on websites alone. >>>> >>>> ??? >>>> >>>> >>>> It is good to talk about new economic models, but to talk about them while >>>> kicking colleagues is not a good idea. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> J >>>> * >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe >>>> Info, archive and help: >>>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe >>> Info, archive and help: >>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre >>> >> > > ______________________________________________ > SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe > Info, archive and help: > http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre > ______________________________________________ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
