Storage closet, approximately 6 feet by 18 feet, loaded with office supplies.
-- David de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated [EMAIL PROTECTED] -------------- Original message -------------- From: Roland Huggins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > was it a janitor's closet or a storage closet in Chicago? Good point > nonetheless. > > Roland > > On Jan 11, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Thom McMahon wrote: > > > I just get the feeling this discussion to eliminate the bottom of > > shaft heads, is just another step backwards, if we actually start > > to eliminate sprinkler heads, based upon weather or not we've had x > > number of activations, or "no fire deaths in un-sprinklerd spaces" > > > > If we start to delete sprinklers from areas, lets do so because A) > > it can't burn. B) there is no ignition source. and C) there is no > > fuel. > > > > I mean it really guy's when is the last time you heard of someone > > who Died in a janitors closet? Yet we protect them, and well we > > should since fires start there, and can spread to the rest of the > > building. When in doubt put in the sprinkler head. > > > > As a contractor, I'd rather put in a few extra heads on every job > > that weren't "Required" (Gray area) rather than miss even one that > > was. It's that One which can turn the court room into a "Life > > changing experience" > > > > Thom McMahon > > Firetech, Inc. > > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 > > Tel: 970-879-7952 > > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David de Vries/Firetech" > > > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:14 PM > > Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators > > > > > >> Agreed. For the sprinkler to activate, the ceiling needs to be > >> there for both fuel sources: debris or hydraulic fluid. > >> > >> John, now as to your contention that most times the car rests at > >> the terminal floor, I guess your luck with elevators is better > >> than mine. Seems whenever I go into to a multi-story building, the > >> elevators are all near the top of the building!! > >> > >> I would still love to hear from contractors as to how many of > >> those sidewalls they have changed due to a fire in the pit. And, > >> George, I know about that form in the back of the book, so if I > >> get the data I will submit the proposal to 13. > >> > >> -- > >> David de Vries, P.E., CSP > >> Firetech Engineering Incorporated > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "John > >> Drucker" > >> > >>> David, > >>> > >>> The same "no ceiling" situation would hold true for fires involving > >>> combustible hydraulic fluids. But consider that most times an > >>> elevator car > >>> "rests" at the terminal floor at or a floor above the pit > >>> creating the > >>> requisite thermal barrier. > >>> > >>> John Drucker > >>> Fire Protection Subcode Official > >>> New Jersey > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum- > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >>> David de > >>> Vries/Firetech > >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:06 PM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators > >>> > >>> Bill: > >>> > >>> You raise a good point -- what is the fire loss experience in > >>> elevator > >>> shafts? > >>> > >>> Do we have a history of such fires? (Probably do, with debris > >>> then cigarets > >>> dropped down the gap between the cab and the floor.) > >>> How often does a sidewall sprinkler activate when there is such a > >>> fire? > >>> Was the elevator cab at its lowest position such that heat from > >>> the fire > >>> could activate the sprinkler? (If we have no "ceiling" to direct > >>> the heat > >>> to the sprinkler, unless the fire is directly below the > >>> sprinkler, it will > >>> probably not activate.) > >>> > >>> If no contractor on this forum has ever been called out to > >>> restore a system > >>> (change out the one sidewall sprinkler) after a fire in the pit > >>> of an > >>> elevator, hydraulic or traction, then the 13 committee needs to > >>> know. Maybe > >>> we can do without one there. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> David de Vries, P.E., CSP > >>> Firetech Engineering Incorporated > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Brooks, Bill" > >>> > >>> > Nothing the committee does is contradictory (by definition)! It > >>> only > >>> > appears contradictory until there is an explanation that makes the > >>> apparent > >>> > contradiction plausible. > >>> > > >>> > So... > >>> > > >>> > It appears the committee is saying: > >>> > > >>> > 1. Debris - combustible fluid = no hazard > >>> > 2. Debris + combustible fluid = hazard > >>> > > >>> > By itself, any quantity of accumulated debris is not a hazard. > >>> Wouldn't > >>> > this be borne out by past experience? Does this remove the > > >>> contradiction? > >>> > > >>> > Bill Brooks > >>> > Pittsburgh, PA > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum- > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John > >>> > Drucker > >>> > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:42 PM > >>> > To: [email protected] > >>> > Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > The NFPA-13 hoistway pit suppression requirement is > >>> contradictory. The > >>> > explanatory material states; " The sprinklers in the pit are > >>> intended > to > >>> > protect against fires caused by debris, which can accumulate > >>> over > time." > >>> > The exception permits the omission of sprinklers in hoistway > >>> pits that > >>> > are enclosed, of non combustible construction and that do not > >>> contain > >>> > combustible hydraulic fluids. So what happened to the debris ?. > >>> The > >>> > removal of combustible hydraulic fluids does not alleviate the > >>> debris > >>> > issue. A hazard still exists. > >>> > > >>> > Additionally the non combustible fluid issue is not addressing > >>> > hydraulic > >>> > elevators but rather traction elevators that don't utilize > >>> hydraulics > as > >>> > their means of locomotion. > >>> > > >>> > John Drucker > >>> > Fire Protection Subcode Official > >>> > New Jersey > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum- > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >>> Roland > >>> > Huggins > >>> > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:17 PM > >>> > To: [email protected] > >>> > Subject: Re: hydraulic elevators > >>> > > >>> > the problem with hydraulic oil is not how well it burns in > >>> standard > >>> > liquid form (ie flash point). It's when a small leak occurs under > >>> > pressure and you get atomized oil spraying out. As a comparison, > >>> > grain dust laying on the ground is not that big a deal but when > >>> > floating in the air, can go boom. > >>> > > >>> > Roland > >>> > > >>> > On Jan 8, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Loren Johnson wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > In my dealings with FM Global, their Approval Guide > >>> > > does list manufacturers who have a less hazardous type > >>> > > of hydraulic fluid, which has a higher flash point > >>> > > than normal hydraulic fluids. FM indicates that these > >>> > > too will burn under certain conditions, but the fire > >>> > > risk has been reduced to an acceptable degree. > >>> > > > >>> > > Loren Johnson - CFPS, CET > >>> > > Fire Protection Systems Consultant > >>> > > The Hitchcock Company > >>> > > Peoria, IL > >>> > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> I had been told by one elevator inspector that there > >>> > >> was an FM approved > >>> > >> hydraulic media that was non-combustible and if that > >>> > >> was being used the > >>> > >> sprinkler in the pit could be deleted. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On the other hand in another jurisdiction I was told > >>> > >> that regardless of > >>> > >> the hydraulic media used that we were to provide a > >>> > >> sprinkler in the pit > >>> > >> due to the possible accumulation of miscellaneous > >>> > >> debris which could > >>> > >> catch fire. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Isn't it wonderful to be in an industry where > >>> > >> everything is so black and > >>> > >> white? ;) > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >>> > >> Fire Protection Group > >>> > >> Mechanical Department > >>> > >> CH2MHILL > >>> > >> Lockwood Greene > >>> > >> 1500 International Drive > >>> > >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > >>> > >> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>> > >> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>> > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >> http://www.lg.com > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sprinklerforum- > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >>> > >> Behalf Of George > >>> > >> Church > >>> > >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:41 AM > >>> > >> To: [email protected] > >>> > >> Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Perhaps everyone else in the area installs to #13R ? > >>> > >> Perhaps a call to the local AHJ(s) would clear up > >>> > >> whether you're the > >>> > >> only one doing it correctly, in which case maybe > >>> > >> your competitors will > >>> > >> be a little dismayed to find themselves going back > >>> > >> and retrofitting > >>> > >> their bottoms. The call to the AHJ(s) could be > >>> > >> two-fold: ask them if > >>> > >> they believe it should be required; and ask WHY it > >>> > >> is not- you may find > >>> > >> in the near future you're no longer alone in the > >>> > >> shaft. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> George Church > >>> > >> Rowe Sprinkler > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sprinklerforum- > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >>> > >> Behalf Of David de > >>> > >> Vries/Firetech > >>> > >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:30 AM > >>> > >> To: [email protected] > >>> > >> Subject: Re: hydraulic elevators > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Pat on the back to the only contractor in the area > >>> > >> complying with this > >>> > >> provision of 13. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -- > >> David de Vries, P.E., CSP > >>> > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -------------- Original message -------------- > >> From: > >>> "Greg McGahan" > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We are receiving mixed reviews from AHJ's > >>> > >> regarding this issue: Are > >>> > >>> sprinklers required in the bottom of hydraulic > >>> > >> elevator shafts? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I know what the code says but we have never been > >>> > >> able to document that > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> ANY > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> hydraulic elev fluid is non-combustible by > >>> > >> definition. I was informed > >>> > >>> this > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> morning that we are the only contractor in the > >>> > >> area putting sprinklers > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> in the bottom of these shafts. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Greg McGahan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >>> > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > >> [email protected] > >>> > >> > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >>> > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > >> [email protected] > >>> > >> > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > __________________________________________________ > >>> > > Do You Yahoo!? > >>> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >>> > > http://mail.yahoo.com > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > >>> > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > > [email protected] > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > [email protected] > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > [email protected] > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > [email protected] > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
