David,
The same "no ceiling" situation would hold true for fires involving
combustible hydraulic fluids. But consider that most times an elevator
car
"rests" at the terminal floor at or a floor above the pit creating the
requisite thermal barrier.
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official
New Jersey
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David de
Vries/Firetech
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators
Bill:
You raise a good point -- what is the fire loss experience in elevator
shafts?
Do we have a history of such fires? (Probably do, with debris then
cigarets
dropped down the gap between the cab and the floor.)
How often does a sidewall sprinkler activate when there is such a fire?
Was the elevator cab at its lowest position such that heat from the fire
could activate the sprinkler? (If we have no "ceiling" to direct the
heat
to the sprinkler, unless the fire is directly below the sprinkler, it
will
probably not activate.)
If no contractor on this forum has ever been called out to restore a
system
(change out the one sidewall sprinkler) after a fire in the pit of an
elevator, hydraulic or traction, then the 13 committee needs to know.
Maybe
we can do without one there.
--
David de Vries, P.E., CSP
Firetech Engineering Incorporated
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brooks, Bill"
> Nothing the committee does is contradictory (by definition)! It only
> appears contradictory until there is an explanation that makes the
apparent
> contradiction plausible.
>
> So...
>
> It appears the committee is saying:
>
> 1. Debris - combustible fluid = no hazard
> 2. Debris + combustible fluid = hazard
>
> By itself, any quantity of accumulated debris is not a hazard.
> Wouldn't
> this be borne out by past experience? Does this remove the
> contradiction?
>
> Bill Brooks
> Pittsburgh, PA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John
> Drucker
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:42 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators
>
>
> The NFPA-13 hoistway pit suppression requirement is contradictory. The
> explanatory material states; " The sprinklers in the pit are intended
> to
> protect against fires caused by debris, which can accumulate over
> time."
> The exception permits the omission of sprinklers in hoistway pits that
> are enclosed, of non combustible construction and that do not contain
> combustible hydraulic fluids. So what happened to the debris ?. The
> removal of combustible hydraulic fluids does not alleviate the debris
> issue. A hazard still exists.
>
> Additionally the non combustible fluid issue is not addressing
> hydraulic
> elevators but rather traction elevators that don't utilize hydraulics
> as
> their means of locomotion.
>
> John Drucker
> Fire Protection Subcode Official
> New Jersey
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
> Huggins
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: hydraulic elevators
>
> the problem with hydraulic oil is not how well it burns in standard
> liquid form (ie flash point). It's when a small leak occurs under
> pressure and you get atomized oil spraying out. As a comparison,
> grain dust laying on the ground is not that big a deal but when
> floating in the air, can go boom.
>
> Roland
>
> On Jan 8, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Loren Johnson wrote:
>
> > In my dealings with FM Global, their Approval Guide
> > does list manufacturers who have a less hazardous type
> > of hydraulic fluid, which has a higher flash point
> > than normal hydraulic fluids. FM indicates that these
> > too will burn under certain conditions, but the fire
> > risk has been reduced to an acceptable degree.
> >
> > Loren Johnson - CFPS, CET
> > Fire Protection Systems Consultant
> > The Hitchcock Company
> > Peoria, IL
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> I had been told by one elevator inspector that there
> >> was an FM approved
> >> hydraulic media that was non-combustible and if that
> >> was being used the
> >> sprinkler in the pit could be deleted.
> >>
> >> On the other hand in another jurisdiction I was told
> >> that regardless of
> >> the hydraulic media used that we were to provide a
> >> sprinkler in the pit
> >> due to the possible accumulation of miscellaneous
> >> debris which could
> >> catch fire.
> >>
> >>
> >> Isn't it wonderful to be in an industry where
> >> everything is so black and
> >> white? ;)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET
> >> Fire Protection Group
> >> Mechanical Department
> >> CH2MHILL
> >> Lockwood Greene
> >> 1500 International Drive
> >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
> >> Direct - 864.599.4102
> >> Fax - 864.599.8439
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> http://www.lg.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >> Behalf Of George
> >> Church
> >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:41 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: RE: hydraulic elevators
> >>
> >> Perhaps everyone else in the area installs to #13R ?
> >> Perhaps a call to the local AHJ(s) would clear up
> >> whether you're the
> >> only one doing it correctly, in which case maybe
> >> your competitors will
> >> be a little dismayed to find themselves going back
> >> and retrofitting
> >> their bottoms. The call to the AHJ(s) could be
> >> two-fold: ask them if
> >> they believe it should be required; and ask WHY it
> >> is not- you may find
> >> in the near future you're no longer alone in the
> >> shaft.
> >>
> >> George Church
> >> Rowe Sprinkler
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >> Behalf Of David de
> >> Vries/Firetech
> >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:30 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: hydraulic elevators
> >>
> >> Pat on the back to the only contractor in the area
> >> complying with this
> >> provision of 13.
> >>
> >> --
> >> David de Vries, P.E., CSP
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> -------------- Original message --------------
> >> From: "Greg McGahan"
> >>
> >>>
> >>> We are receiving mixed reviews from AHJ's
> >> regarding this issue: Are
> >>> sprinklers required in the bottom of hydraulic
> >> elevator shafts?
> >>>
> >>> I know what the code says but we have never been
> >> able to document that
> >>
> >>> ANY
> >>
> >>> hydraulic elev fluid is non-combustible by
> >> definition. I was informed
> >>> this
> >>
> >>> morning that we are the only contractor in the
> >> area putting sprinklers
> >>
> >>> in the bottom of these shafts.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Greg McGahan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> [email protected]
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> >
> >
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