Just re-read this and it sure do ramble, hope it makes sense to some of you.
Other than Rick I have not heard a lot from the AHJ's lurking out there.
This is just my take on the relationship with both the client and the AHJ.
Many Ahj's (Most?) rely on our expertise to at least some extent. Many
actually flag certain contractors submittals due to past situations or
quality issues. I don't ever want to be in that position with any of the
AHJ's we work with. I'm not always right, and we don't always install
mistake free systems, but the relationship with our AHJ's is that if we're
wrong we fix it. (And we attempt to never repeat that mistake again.)
Our AHJ's are our co-designers. (layout tech.) When they change the code's
they are the design professional. (They replaced engineering with their own
reasoning.) Who better to ask than the guy that wrote the standard? (One of
the many reason's this forum is such a good resource.)
But even when they've changed nothing in the standard, they are still the
enforcement, and on going review for all existing systems. We talk, both on
and off the record with our AHJ's all the time. We develop a repour, and I
feel trust and understanding.
They also know that we can't always pick and chose our clients or the
projects that we want. So what to do?(Assumes we can't or don't want to walk
away.)
In our case we would talk to the AhJ (off the record) explain what has
happened, and what we think is going to happen, and our concerns. Most would
agree that there is no actionable violation, until the pod's are in place.
They would probably review the plans with their usual care, and see the
owners signed cert which we scanned and placed on the front page of our
drawing is complete. They would notify their inspectors to check this
property 1/4ly to check for change of use after our final, and everyone is
covered.
The relationship with the owner is somewhat different depending upon weather
this is a one shot deal or a repeat customer. (Neither would change the
discussion with the AHJ.) With a "Good" customer, multiable projects good
pay ect.talk first, write second, but always be honest.
Tell them that the AHJ has increased their enforcement of these facilities
and will catch him if he changes use from the initial design. That his own
insurance company may void all coverage if he changes use with out notifying
them or upgrading the system, and that his tenants insurance won't cover his
loss either, and he'll probably come after the owner for compensation,
compensation no longer covered by the owners insurance. Show the owner that
it's in his best interest to properly protect this building. That he puts
himself at risk if he doesn't. That the AHJ will catch him, (it's only a
matter of time) and then he may lose significant income and suffer "Loss of
Use" while they force him to "Unload the building, Meet the current
(Possibly more stringent or costly codes) than what is in place now. His
tenant will move elsewhere while that happens and may never come back, or
even better, he'll spend the required upgrade money on a tenant that doesn't
return, and the new tenant would have worked with the lower density system.
Explain to him that your insurance will be void, and not offer him any
protection if he changes use from the owner cert. and that the AHJ will
support that. That he'll fail his first inspection, which will require
notice to the AHJ. That if he chooses not to do inspections, his own
insurance will once again have reason to a) deny any claim, and/or b) to
increase his and his tenants insurance rates.
Show your client that (unlike George's analogy with the car. He sure does
love anything with a seat belt analogy) your client would be in the same
situation as if he took the 5 mil for his building and went to Vegas. He
sits at a casino until its all gone. It's not a question of if he'll lose
it, just how long it will take. Play the game long enough and you lose.
Owner is a one time thing, or at least one without a history with your firm.
Walk? yeah or try all of the above, and when that doesn't work offer to
include "Free" quarterly inspections for the 1 year warranty period. When
you do the inspection and see pod's. Mark it as a decency and report it to
the Owner and AHJ as required. Then provide the owner with a proposal to
upgrade their system to meet the occupancy. Owner doesn't accept, it's the
AHJ's problem. Owner accepts the proposal, you get more work. If he didn't
pay you for the original promptly you can even ask for cash in advance on
your proposal.
What kind of person we work for is often not evident until we actually do
work for them. We'd all love just "Good" customers, but getting there is a
learning experience. No matter how binding and Legal the "Contracting" is,
it's always a risk. We gamble every day. Minimize the risk or maximize the
profit to cover the loss. At the end of the day your still here and those
that don't aren't.
Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Church" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: owners information certificate
Todd, I think the chances of getting PAIN IN FULL are excellent.
I threw the car example out just as a parallel.
Assuming you can find work to keep your guys busy, RUN AWAY is by far the
best advice. Life's too short to do business with the unethical.
Even if you install it properly, will it be maintained? Will the heat stay
on (ok, you're in FL)? If there is a loss, will the Owner try to lie and
opin it on you by fabricating a story to pin the liability on you?
RUN AWAY
And once you've done that, you are no longer the agent of the owner, not
having any contractual bind. This frees you up to call the AHJ and explain
what is coming at him. That is the ETHICAL way to handle this, IMHO.
Except I can't have an opinion, just being a CET :)
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd
Williams
- work
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: owners information certificate
Greg,
Run, don't walk away. This guy is an ethical nightmare. If he does
this type of thing, what are your odds of getting pain in full? Or
what else does he have out there that could potentially hurt you? I
would contact your attorney, explain to him the situation and see
what his/her advise would be on protecting yourself, but leave this
for your competition. If you've already signed on, talk to your
attorney about this from that perspective. Maybe you have an escape route.
Todd
At 12:03 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote:
Part A:
What do we (as an industry) do when an owner completes the Owner's
Information Certificate incorrectly to deliberately mislead an AHJ?
Part B:
What do we do when they technically tell the truth as in building a
warehouse that has no storage above 12' initially but they have every
intention (because they tell you so) to store PODS 24' high after they get
a
CO?
BTW, the reason I have been unsuccessful in convincing the owner of the
proper level of protection is because there have 2 of these buildings
built
within 200 miles in the last few months and both of them had minimal
systems. The installing contractor on one of the jobs told me that they
were
told the building was a spec warehouse and to protect it as an empty
building and after they were done the owner would lease it to the PODS
franchisee. His comment was "I don't know if that protects me or not"
Legally?
Morally I feel bound to walk away from this project but that just means
that
they will find someone else to do the job incorrectly and although there
is
no liability involved, there is still the knowledge that the building
(Ord.
Group II) will be grossly under protected.
I know the argument that we are not police of the industry nor can we 2nd
guess what the potential future occupancy of a building is or may be one
day, but this is different and one of the 2 scenarios listed above is
going
to happen on this project.
Thanks for your input,
Greg
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com
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